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The talks will resume on Thursday. But I'm told by a mogul that the reason the second half of the AMPTP proposal 
-- which presumably contains an offer about electronic sell-through (ESTs) -- has not yet seen the light of day is because "no one is prepared to put anything new on the table until there's movement on other issues." Oh, c'mon!
So the AMPTP had an internal meeting today about the WGA's offer on streaming but didn't bring any counter/counter-offer on New Media to the table. The WGA in an end-of-day statement tonight said "we are still waiting for the AMPTP to respond to ... Internet streaming of theatrical and TV product and digital downloads." The producers' end-of-day statement tonight was generic, not detailed.
The largest part of today's negotiations were taken over by the WGA's small group discussion of jurisdiction for Reality TV and made-for-Web content as well as animation and cable. I've learned the WGA played hardball by demanding that network and studio CEOs no longer make deals with Reality TV producers like Mark Burnett Productions, Fremantle, Endemol etc unless those companies become signatories of the WGA. This is part of the WGA's continuing campaign to ensure that Reality TV writers -- often referred to as the story editors or story producers of the shows -- start to receive the same benefits and pay and protections as guild members. 
(Of course, further complicating matters is that some Reality TV shows have signed deals with IA, the editors guild.) It's also clear the WGA's demand today was timed to this Friday's big writers protest outside Fremantle Media headquarters.
Needless to say, network CEOs expressed disbelief and anger that the WGA would try to put Reality TV on the table today. I swear one mogul was going to have a coronary, sputtering as he charged that today's talks were "going backwards". (Did the producers not hear that Variety erroneously reported pre-strike that the WGA negotiators had dropped their nonscripted proposal? On the other hand, don't the writers consider New Media formulas a more pressing issue? Am I starting to lose the will to live?)
Interestingly, the WGA's demand that all made-for-web work be placed under the guild's full jurisdiction didn't seem to hit a nerve with either the AMPTP or its CEOs.
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I hate reality TV with a passion.
With the exception of gameshows, I too am not a huge fan of reality tv.
I just wish he strike was over…….
Does the WGA really think that the AMPTP will make a deal with regards to reality TV. No way. If this is a sticking point for the WGA then be prepared for a long strike.
Tomorrow, the WGA is going to demand that the AMPTP end the war in iraq…..
Let reality tv implode on itself, and broker a deal.
I think the genie is way out of the bottle on this. And my friends that work in reality TV aren’t that interested in representation anyway. It’s sort of a stepping stone into scripted stuff. I think this was just a way to piss off the moguls ’cause they haven’t come back with the stuff they’re supposed to have presented. BTW, I missed my December mortgage payment.
Just saying.
so the second half of the proposal was withheld because other issues remain unsolved…but when the wga tried to solve an unsolved issue, reality jurisdiction, that was going backwards?
I thought becoming a WGA signatory was optional? To insist that a show become WGA because the Guild says the show MUST is ludicrous.
What the Guild should focus upon are the “one-offs” those are companies that a signatory company creates to use the new “one-off” company as a non-union/guild entity.
Those are the problem Production Companies – the companies that with clear intent try to evade a signatory agreement they willingly signed.
Stupidly, the companies usually have the same Corporate Officers so they aren’t difficult to trace and the Unions/Guilds have the right to audit any signatory show – during the audits – if they look carefully or the company is stupid (which most are) finding the one-off is traceable.
I knew it. I knew it.
I knew people like Anonymous and YoungPhilly would start bitching about reality TV shows, how rotten it is, how much they hate them, etc. Of course, this doesn’t stop any of you from coming to WORK ON THEM every time you can’t get a gig on a scripted show.
I’ve worked on three reality shows in the past five years and everyone had WGA members working on them. The networks knew it, the Guild knew and nobody said anything. Meanwhile, you bitch about scabs trying to work non-union on struck shows. You can’t have it both ways.
I’m glad there’s a rally planned in front of Fremantle and I’d love to see that greed factory shut down. But you can’t stand out there demanding they become Guild signatory companies while saying what they produce is worthless crap. Reality shows, for better or worse, have proven track records, cost nothing and the public watches the damned things. American Idol, Dancing With Stars, Smarter Than A 5th Grader, are all hits.
The networks know very well that the typical WGA member openly hates reality shows yet doesn’t mind working on them when things are slow. This is why organizing reality is going to be difficult because the moguls already know they can get Guild members to work on them for the crappy money they pay anyway.
When the America’s Next Top Model writers (sorry, ’story producers’) walked off last year, it was a disaster. IATSE swooped in, unionized the editors, and that ended it. The Guild didn’t stand by them because the consensus was, hey, these guys must be hacks, they work on a reality show.
If you want to be supportive, A) acknowledge reality shows are a popular commodity. B) quit treating non-Guild members who work on them like they’re beneath you, and C) QUIT WORKING ON THEM YOURSELVES WHEN YOU CAN’T GET ON A SCRIPTED SHOW!
I’m not a fan of reality TV either, but I still think that the writers should have reasonable hours, decent pay, and insurance.
For the sake of all the reality TV writers, I’m glad this is back on the table.
If the AMPTP won’t show the second half of the New Economic Partnership proposal until everything that’s currently on the table get settled, then when is this strike ever going to end???
Nikki, it should also be pointed out that by no means are story producers on reality shows ever referred to as “editors,” (’story editors” perhaps but never editors) although it is the editors of these shows who actually are ultimately responsible for creating the structure of the stories. (This is why the WGA crossed IATSE by trying to organize the reality editors . . . with disasterous results). Not to denigrate the hardworking story departments on these shows and not to say that they don’t deserve representation, but they are more like support staff to the editors than actual writers of the stories. The WGA is foolish to make this a demand in these negotiations when they have much more pressing issues to deal with.
Do the writers what to end this strike or have the AMPTP walk away from the table again???? They should be negotiating around the clock…
So the conglomerates a) didn’t respond to the WGA’s counter-offer on streaming and b) still haven’t made the second half of their offer that is supposed to address EST/downloads…. and they have the gall to complain that the WGA talked about other issues and call it a “step backwards”? What were the two sides supposed to talk about?!?
Hey Hey Greatly Annoyed
I said I am not a fan…that doesnt mean I HATE them. I too have worked on Reality TV and damnit I miss everyone on the staff, it was a great experience and I really learned a lot. I’m not bitter because I can’t get on a scripted show either.
I acknowledge that Reality Shows are a hot commodity but that doesn’t mean that I have I Love New York Tivo’d..Although I love Gotti;s Way so maybe I am wrong in a sense.
I’ll be honest with you, I’m still earning my stripes in the industry, Im getting great opportunities to learn many aspects of this industry. It just been a bit of a culture shock learning the ways the WGA and AMPTP do business. I haven;t missed rent or car payments cause I’m a hustler firts. I’ve cleaned cars and sold sneakers during this strike to make ends meet.
I just wish the Strike ends thats all. I guess now getting on a Scripted show is what its all about huh? Well, thanks for the insight…you know It would be awesome to work on 30 Rock..thats my favorite show.
could it be that the wga has actually learned something?
propose a non-starter that will anger your opposition so that you you can take it off of the table later, look magnanimous, and get something else you really want.
i bet the trade will be for jurisdiction over web writers, and the amptp can keep reality non-union.
“New Economic Partnership?” What kind of Bushie doublespeak is that?
Reality Story Producers must be under WGA jurisdiction?
Neither side in this clusterfuck has any intention of conducting a genuine labor negotiation.
Fucking pitiful.
Five weeks out of work, the best offer on the table is 250 bucks, and we’re *pressing our advantage?!?*
Guys, get a good rate on internet sales and get the fuck out of Dodge.
Tell me this is just a sop to those fringers who think jurisdiction is the key to the castle. “We tried.”
You guys are missing the point. The AMPTP doesn’t want to discuss giving the WGA jurisdiction over reality and game shows (as I mentioned here last week) not because of the reason that ‘Greatly Annoyed’ thinks, but because then a strike would cripple them. And whether people want to recognize it or not, the networks are not currently crippled by the strike. They are somewhat strike-proof as long as they have programming they can make during a WGA strike, like reality shows. Give the WGA jurisdiction, and a strike would truly shutdown everything, something the AMPTP just can’t allow.
Here’s how the Guild can make things do slower. Combine reality and new media demands and demand to represent that cat playing piano on You Tube.
The WGA leadership is following a negotiation strategy where what they ask for may not be what they will fall on their swords for. Trust your elected leadership and stop whining everytime they play hardball rather than cave into the AMPTP.
And Julius, if you missed your mortgage payment call the Guild. They have money they can loan you with no interest for just this siuation. We’re all in this together.
Hey all – today was the one month anniversary of the strike! That means that there are two more weeks before the studios actually start getting rid of deals right? So you KNOW that the AMPTP will move SLOWWWWLEEEE for two weeks, call a holiday break while the studios get their force majeure on, further breaking the guild morale. This was told to me by a studio exec. Any truth to this Nikki?
Someone explain to me how Michael Mann – who is a WGA member as well – is going to direct Johnny Depp in Public Enemies? Didn’t I see Mann’s name on a list of writers declaring NOT ONE MORE WORD and pledging not to take any meetings, etc., etc. I can understand non WGA directors getting behind the camera, but how does Mann’s position help the strike – especially since the deal to move forward with Depp and the film only came about a day or so ago? I just turned down a huge studio directing gig because I want to stand firm with my guild, so this really pisses me off. Mann is an industry icon and he’s directing a screenplay that’s he written in the midst of a WGA strike – and Mann is also a perfectionist. There’s no fucking way that he shoots the exact script that he has written.
For 6 months leading up to the strike, the AMPTP made no attempt to negotiate. For the first 4 weeks of the strike the AMPTP made no attempt to negotiate. Finally there is movement, however small that movement may be. The industry is suffering, but if the guild makes a bad deal, all talent, above and below the line will suffer. Stop being a bunch of whiney turds because this strike isn’t settled yet. If you want to show your frustration, whether you are a writer, director, actor, set decorator, grip, etc… take to the picket line because whether you care to admit it, this is about YOU also. And understand that this won’t be settled overnight. Dig in, figure out your finances and get help if you need it. Understand that the writers didn’t wish to take to the picket line and we are all in this together.
To read some of the comments in here you’d think people want to take any kind of a deal as long as it’s quick. Yeah, why muddy up negotiations by demanding that writer’s be recognized. After all it’s just game shows and reality shows. Who really cares about those? I’ll tell you who, the companies that are flooding the airwaves with lots of cheap to produce programming and making even more profits off the backs of the writers. In case you haven’t notices, just about every other prime time show is either a reality show or a game show.
Reality needs to be addressed. Game shows are already covered in the guild’s MBA but the companies give the finger to it and remain non-union even though those same shows have union hosts, directors, and crews. It’s WRITING and they are making lots of money from the writer’s work. It’s an important issue and they are violating writer’s rights – many of whom are WGA members – by treating them substandard and not recognizing them as writers.
Keep this in mind. Today they are not using guild writers for their reality shows and game shows and tomorrow they will start doing that with scripted shows. How long will it be before they just stop dealing with the WGA altogether? ALL writers should be treated fairly and work under WGA contracts.
jimmy is the only one who has it right. Ladies and gentlemen, I present to you the sacrificial lamb. Make it look like she’s important to us then offer her up to the Gods. Give the negotiating team some credit will ya????
Well, well, well. As a frustrated member of the guild, FINALLY, through this and other sites, we can all see just how out of touch the WGA actually is when it comes to their own power and their own skill at the table. THe dirty little secret is out of the bag–Verrone and company are in way over their heads and have no sense of what their constituency really wants–and by “constituency,” I am talking about the group they have so uniquely annointed–the Showrunners, of which I am one. Many of my compatriots have secretly been waiting for the negotiating committee and it’s leaders to reveal themselves as the naive and egotistical grooup they are. Let the games begin. I truly don’t believe they can hold the union together if they insist on over-reaching for goals that, in general, even the rank and file aren’t concerned with. Come back to reality guys….
So Anonymous 10:04pm,
you’re saying that the WGA is the one trying to stall and annoy the AMPTP and not advance the bargaining to try to reach a deal quickly???
You’re all missing the point. That Survivor chick is HOT! Hello Mudonna!
Just one quick comment, the WGA is right to demand reality TV jurisdiction as long as the second half of a proposal promised by the AMPTP. This isn’t operation make strike go longer, but just a operation to force negotiations to get whatever you want. Has Nikki not told all of us that the Moguls are starting to crack. If the WGA starts piling on more and more demands unrelated to the main issues at hand, someone on the Moguls side is going to break down and force a settlement where the writers get more than what they are asking and I believe that someone will be NBC’s Jeff Zucker because he can’t really afford to go deep into the spring with NBC as the fourth place network due to American Idol. Mark my words, a deal will be done by next week at this time or we will be faced with Jeff Zucker’s funeral.
Take this reality TV thing off the table. ASAP.
I haven’t met one WGA member… walking the picket lines… willing to strike for “reality TV”.
This issue gives me a massive headache…
To editroid:
Of course, editors are people who write with video and have the physical ability to lock the show in the Avid. Editors are also people who have a really big stake in scripts not being terrible.
So, why is it that the editors and writers aren’t in the same union? Is the problem that the editors think letting the writers in would weaken them, or is that the writers are snobs, or is it that the writers have a much different compensation structure? Or is it just because of a rivalry between the various unions?
This strike is the most exciting thing these writers have come up with in YEARS….Good Show!
I’m torn. By getting reality “writers” into the WGA, the guild becomes much stronger. On the other hand, I worked a year in reality TV, and the majority of the “writers” couldn’t even manage a cohesive beat summary, much less story and dialogue. It’s just kind of a slap in the face to real writers…
the strike is hurting the studios because their advertisers are getting antsy. It’s a pivotal year for network TV–ratings are way down, lots of ad money is questioning why a TV eyeball is worth 10x as much as a web eyeball. the ad exodus/migration away from network is a HUGE pressure on the congloms right now, and the strike is greatly intensifying that pressure.
its true that the corps haven’t been hurt that bad yet, but the upfronts next year are starting to look VERY WOBBLY, and there isn’t enough scatter inventory for all the make goods they are going to owe after March. With an actor strike looming in June (more militant than WGA), we could be looking at 2 television seasons atomized at an absolutely PIVOTAL JUNCTURE in the transformation of the business.
The studios, I believe, are starting to realize its cheaper ultimately to give the writers what they want. The issue is how to save face.
So we’re asking for something the AMPTP can’t allow. Please tell me you understand the problem with that.
Writers. Sigh.
Amazing… all along reality and animation have been part of the pattern of demands. So why is anyone getting upset that it’s not being discussed. Look, I may never write on a reality show, but that doesn’t stop me from picketing along with the others over this. To start saying only one issue is important is the same reason we’ve failed in the past to get a really good deal. D.
Ah, we’re back to blaming the WGA for not bending over immediately. If the studios want to respond to our offer on streaming, if they want to negotiate fair rates on the internet, the strike ends in two days.
Until they accept the reality that this strike is real, and that over a hundred shows have shut down, this strike goes on. As a guild member, I feel very sorry for fellow writers, crew members, and staffers now out of work. But I know this strike is not something the guild wanted to do. It was forced on us by the studios. We’re taking care of our own. We’re not backing down.
Blaming us for a shutdown we didn’t want, that culd have been avoided, is some sort of magical thinking. The good studios will take care of all of us, as long as we do what they say.
Please, this is not grey. There are not two sides to this story. When we get our fair share, we go back to work. That is our right, and our obligation to our fellow writers (and actors, and dga members, and IATSE members).
You want this stke to end, put the pressure on the studios, any way you can.
Just when I thought they were closer to making a deal, this comes..
Isn’t getting a good deal on the internet more important?
All reality shows are rigged, as rigged as “An Ace in the Hole” starring Kirk Douglas…Good movie by the way but instead of a cynical reporter I put an even deeper cynical ‘reality writer/editor/producer’.
Animation writers should ABSOLUTELY be in the WGA receiving the exact same protection any writer. Whether the actor’s real face is filmed or the picture is animated has no bearing on the writers’ work creating the story and dialogue. Cable also should be covered.
My guess would be that they made the grab so that they could give something up. Reality writers mean the world to the producers. Let the demand go later in negotiations, give the producers either and apparently major concession or face saving one. Depending on your perspective.
You know who resolved the strike in 1988? Ken Ziffren. Not the WGA negotiating committee, but rather an attorney, a professional dealmaker.
I am not advocating the removal of WGA leadership, nor am I trying to divide the membership or dilute our resolve but everyone needs to wake up and smell the proverbial coffee.
Put simply, your house is on fire, call the fire department, don’t call the guys who wrote “Backdraft”.
I agree with Greatly annoyed here…as much as I hate Wife Swap, The Bachelor, and American Idol, (yes, I’m one of the few; and sorry to anyone who has worked or is/was working for these shows…), I would much rather indulge myself in Brothers and Sisters, ER, and The Colbert Report on any given day. But, at this point in time, it’s hard to deny the simple fact that reality TV is here to stay and is generally successful. This is an important issue, BUT let’s hammer out the logistics of the Internet residuals and get on with it, guys. I think all parties involved in all this need to keep in mind the hot-button word for this strike: negotiate.
@Anonymous 10:04
The AMPTP thinking it’s strike-proof is the sweetest gift to writers. That kind of arrogance and myopic vision will be their downfall. As soon it’s all-reality all-the-time on network, viewers will have their fill and flee even faster than they already are.
What a laugh! As a WGA member who works in scripted and has produced reality, i just love the venom that other WGA members have towards the latter medium. Here is a thought… hate reality all you want, but all your Havard educated asses aren’t doing anything new.
Thats why the sitcom is dead.
This is like that scene in the GI Joe animated movie, when Golobulous (voiced by Burgess Meredith) was trying to kill Lt. Falcon (voiced by Don Johnson).
He asked Falcon is he ready to die, and Falcon told him all he has to do, is hold out for “five more minutes.”
Once we reach the sixth week of the strike and notices go out to the under-performing actors, writers and producers that their development deals are over, the strike will end at the end of the week.
These seem like stalling tactics from afar to me just to get to that date.
Lt. Falcon saved the day and destroyed Cobra-La, with the help of Sargent Slaughter by the way.
It is a great advantage to this Bush regime to have the writers out on strike. And don’t think Bush et al don’t know it. No Daily Show or Colbert skewering their pathetic lies.
All writers should get a fair deal…
To read some of the comments in here you’d think people want to take any kind of a deal as long as it’s quick. Yeah, why muddy up negotiations by demanding that writer’s be recognized. After all it’s just game shows and reality shows. Who really cares about those? I’ll tell you who, the companies that are flooding the airwaves with lots of cheap to produce programming and making even more profits off the backs of the writers. In case you haven’t notices, just about every other prime time show is either a reality show or a game show.
Reality needs to be addressed. Game shows are already covered in the guild’s MBA but the companies give the finger to it and remain non-union even though those same shows have union hosts, directors, and crews. It’s WRITING and they are making lots of money from the writer’s work. It’s an important issue and they are violating writer’s rights – many of whom are WGA members – by treating them substandard and not recognizing them as writers.
Keep this in mind. Today they are not using guild writers for their reality shows and game shows and tomorrow they will start doing that with scripted shows. How long will it be before they just stop dealing with the WGA altogether? ALL writers should be treated fairly and work under WGA contracts.
Really? Reality TV? Really? That’s what we’re fighting for now? The people who suggest that maybe Whitney should ask L.C. how her date was, or script the words, “And the gold star goes to…”
Really?
On whether or not reality shows should be covered and whether story producers are really writers:
First, fellow posters… whether or not you like a show shouldn’t affect whether its writers should be covered. Reality tv and game shows are an easy target, it’s true… but as long as American Idol and Dancing with the Stars are trumping incredible shows like HOUSE in the ratings, someone’s watching, money’s coming in, somebody wrote it, and that’s why we’re all here.
An editor here posted his or her take that story producers are merely support staff, neglecting to mention that in most cases, they are responsible for the generation of the content being worked on.
Story Producers and Editors work well together, and in the rare absence of a titled Story Producer, the editor is often asked to step up and fill that void, as was the case with Next Top Model (to my understanding). My take on it has always been that if you’re a lone editor on a show and dropping in title card after title card of “suggested VO” for your host, making lists of action you need picked up and spelling out interview bites you’d like someone to go back and shoot for you, then it doesn’t mean the show has no story people… it means you’re writing as a hyphenate.
Most of the time, my terrific editors arrive on the scene only after I’ve spent weeks on a paper script and/or created a basic assembly for them, and we collaborate from there. Sure, I’ve written that first draft, but “rewrites” are the fruit of our teamwork in the bay. Something doesn’t edit together well, I’ll change my VO or request new interviews. My editor may browse thirty seconds to the right and find a shot that suddenly makes one of our story points work better. I appreciate them, and I’d like to think they appreciate me. We’re working together, and neither of us is merely the “support.”
Personally, I think Story Producers are often perceived as support staff by editors as a result of being paid far less as nonunion workers.
Thanks for the effort, WGA.
I agree with “jimmy” who says this is a negotiation tactic that will be taken off the table later. The WGA is not stupid.
propose a non-starter that will anger your opposition so that you you can take it off of the table later, look magnanimous, and get something else you really want.
Problem is, you do that from the start, not half way through… or rather you don’t take it off the table and then put it back on the table only to take it off again to get a better deal. The WGA should have kept all their demands, including a high rate for residuals until now, so they could have some haggle room. You can’t create this now because it is seen as a step backwards. The goal from the start should be to get a good deal but it should also be to keep the strike as short as possible. From an outsider, the WGA negotiating folks seem incompetent.
The WGA needs to get a really good “New Media” deal and just live with the fact that they won’t get everything else they want. If you push for the DVD, expect to lose your house if you’re not so high on the totem pole…
people, people, people, I see why you are writers and not negotiators. (although those of you who persist in writing writer’s strike not the correct writers’ strike should find a new line of work)I’m a longtime guild member who’s never worked in reality, and I think it’s a wise move to bring these ppl into the fold. but maybe that’s not the guild’s intent. maybe it’s a negotiating tactic. please, read “Negotiating for Dummies” before you come in here blasting away.
It’s unlikely that the AMPTP will settle with the WGA before they get at least one more shot at “divide and conquer.” That’s what I’m hearing through the studio grapevine.
The current AMPTP strategy is to “appear to be engaged in the negotiating process” with the WGA (for PR purposes, hence the new PR dogs), but stall until January/February when the AMPTP will make its move to get the DGA to the negotiating table. The DGA’s willingness (or unwillingness) to begin negotiations will determine the next move. Even though the DGA has agreed not to begin talks with the AMPTP, the studios believe that the DGA will play ball in February.
The word I’m getting is that what the writers are asking for is a pittance… until you multiply it by 10 for what the studios/networks would have to pay the other guilds and unions if they got similar deals. Then that pittance grows to a very big number. That’s why the AMPTP’s marching orders are to continue to divide and conquer.
Hey, if this is part of a bargaining tactic to get the AMPTM to finally come up with the second half of their proposal, I think it’s a good move.
If it’s an actual concern that Verrone & Young are pushing for, it’s the death knell of the WGA.
What about all the reports — LA Times, etc. — that yesterday was “productive” with honest-to-John WGA quotes?
“could it be that the wga has actually learned something?
propose a non-starter that will anger your opposition so that you you can take it off of the table later, look magnanimous, and get something else you really want.
Comment by jimmy — December 5, 2007 ”
THANK YOU JIMMY. I swear I read some of these comments and I can’t believe how stupid most people are. This isn’t brain surgery. This is negotiating 101. Go get a book. Look up negotiating tacticts online but for the love of god stop bitching and whining about every move being made that doesn’t make sense when (to those of us who understand these simplistic tactics) THEY DO make sense.
I’ll differ with you on this: The guild has finally learned something. But it’s too little, too late and too obvious. Rather than try to stay AHEAD of the producers, the WGA is playing catchup by pulling elementary stunts out of the “Negotiating 101″ handbook. This move would’ve would have made more sense this six weeks ago. Now, it just makes WGA negotiators look amateurish. Now, you’re all going to miss quite a few more mortgage payments due to the stupidity of your leadership. Happy Holidays.
If you are going to get so uptight over this move by the WGA to put Reality membership back on the table, read the entire post first. The Moguls are having heart attacks due to the WGA’s move yesterday. I am not a writer but what they are doing is trying to use the AMPTP’s tactics against them and with the Moguls splintering, this strike will be over sooner rather than later.
Also, the reason why reality is so cheap is because networks can put just about anything on the air and hope that it will stick. Unfortunately, NBC and other networks need to further test these shows because they will cost money in the long run.
Bringing reality writers into the fold would be great for scripted TV… It would up the production costs for reality (hopefully) to the point that execs would look at some more comedy/drama before automatically going down the cheaper programming route…
Hey Chuckie,
Last time I checked, none of us here were required to take a prerequisite “Union Negotiating Tactics 101″ course before posting comments here. Just because you’re ticked off doesn’t mean it’s necessary to criticize everyone here for not being a union leader and knowing all there is to know about what goes on between them.
Check yourself before you blanket everyone, and their comments, as “stupid.”
>>Someone explain to me how Michael Mann – who is a WGA member as well – is going to direct Johnny Depp in Public Enemies?<<
The fat cat never gives up his milk, darling. It’s always the runts who starve.
As my ex-agent used to say: “Welcome to Hollywood!”
Question:
How much of Dancing With the Stars is written? Out of a one hour episode, eliminate commercial breaks, four minutes per dance, five minutes for judges’ comments and backstage interviews per couple, five minutes of rehearsal footage per couple etc. Which leaves not much left to actually write. So how much of that show IS written?
Actually, ChuckT, they did do the same thing about four weeks ago when they took DVD off the table to try to get movement on streaming.
I think the AMPTP did not expect them to do that, so they got caught not actually wanting to hold up their end of the bargain, and they had to maneuver with this “you went on strike while we were talking? ee gad!” bullshit to walk away.
And if this is so transparent, why did the AMPTP react with anger? Why not remain simply unimpressed, or even better, act like you’re thinking about it?
Since they were upset, it looks like they fell for it.
And if you really want to organize reality, I think you have to use SAG and DGA too or it won’t work.
DGA directors direct reality. And SAG members often host reality shows. If SAG tried to unionize reality stars as “extras” or something so they could get protection, and DGA withheld their directors until SAG and WGA were given jurisdiction…then either reality would end or they would make a deal about it.
WGA can’t do it alone because they don’t have the leverage.
Michael Mann should be brought up on charges of scabbing but those cowards at the guild won’t do this because they’re afraid to challenge MM they only have the guts to drag lowly sitcom writers before their kangaroo court. What happened to that one writer who was summoned before the guild tribunal three weeks ago?
I worked on a whole slew of reality programming from 2000-2006 (as a story producer at the end) and I’m of the opinion that while story producers should have reasonable working conditions, hourly or daily pay w/overtime instead of weekly (which allows execs to ask them to come in on weekends without any extra scrill tossed their way) and health benefits, I also think on some shows their importance is overstated. Certainly they do voiceovers and work in the bays on a lot of the shows mentioned, but on others they basically work out an extremely rough paper stringout with all the pertinent footage pulled and notated, and then the editor smooths things over. It varies from show to show and I speculate that what happened with ANTM was the producers figured the editors did enough of the work to compensate for the loss of the SPs. Unlike every single film or every single scripted fiction show on TV, story producers are not a completely necessary part of the equation all across the genre, which is why they get treated like shit a lot of the time: there’s an underlying assumption that the show can be done without them. Sometimes it’s a correct assumption, mostly it’s a wrong assumption. Whatever the case may be, I got out because I never liked the implied assumptions or the shitty hours with no extra pay (then again, maybe I just worked at the wrong companies).
I would bitch about being asked to fill out mileage sheets instead of time-cards so my paycheck wouldn’t note overtime and other sneaky tricks, but I’m not sure this is the place for it! This isn’t a reality strike after all, and I’m not in the game anymore.
Re: Reality Editors vs. Writers, and how much of a show is “written” –
I am a WGA member, and a writer on a successful reality show. What do I do, you ask?
Well, I scan and read logs for 50 hours’ worth of footage, and read about 100 pages worth of interviews, plucking everything that’s gripping, emotional, interesting and funny from that massive pile of raw material. This takes about a week.
Then I decide which parts of the daily lives of the “characters” will become A, B, and C storylines, and how those stories will be told, because the footage can usually make several different things seem to be “really” happening.
Once I’ve figured out my stories, I decide which actions are going to be juxtaposed with which interview bite, and to what effect — hypocrisy? Humor? Emotion? If I feel like something’s missing, I write additional dialogue in the characters’ voices and send it off to the crew for a pick-up.
When I’m done with all that, I figure out how to dole out little pieces of those stories, carefully juxtaposing each piece with pieces of the other storylines and stringing the whole thing together with interview bites, so that the episode will follow a four-act structure, with four exciting act breaks, and neat little arcs for each one of the stories we’re following.
When all of this is done, I have a 30-page script for a 22-minute show, and I turn my work over to an editor who, while excellent at switching camera angles, making montages, picking music cues, and cutting out “ums,” and brilliant at making a satisfying VISUAL narrative, couldn’t tell a coherent STORY to save his or her life.
I’m not asking (in this job) to be paid like someone who creates characters and situations out of whole cloth. But to deny that what I do is a form of storytelling that millions of people watch and enjoy, and that I should be denied even asking for union health and pension for my efforts, is both ludicrous and cruel.
per Pete Aronson: You know who resolved the strike in 1988? Ken Ziffren. Not the WGA negotiating committee, but rather an attorney, a professional dealmaker.
Not sure what your point is, Pete. The ‘88 contract was a shitty deal.
Best,
Bob
Hey, Truthinista –
While you’re busy demanding that I “check” myself, why don’t you just read a statement for what it is and try to retain the essence of its meaning before you rattle off a comeback that is of no relevance to the argument. My statement wasn’t in regards to “EVERYONE” and I clearly state that. But the fact that you feel it is unecessary to read up on negotiation strategies between Unions and Management BEFORE you vote on whether to strike speaks volumes and also makes my next statement applicable to you. Reading is fundamental. Try it.
Jimmy, you missed my point (if I’m understanding you correctly). What I meant by this Reality TV tactic coming too late and it being more effective six weeks ago is that it is way too late in the game to pull THIS type of maneuver. Six weeks ago, it would have made more sense to try this exact tactic (the earlier in the negotiations the better) and it would have been met with silence (as you say) and barely a grumble from the producers (but would have still been rejected of course). To pull this at THIS stage in the negotiations is definitely going to warrant anger and retaliation from the producers if for no other reason than that it is so transparent that it’s an effort on the part of the WGA to “play” the producers (it’s an insult to the intellect — at least when the Producers have pissed off the WGA, it has genuinely left you guys wondering what the hell is going on – THIS is just… elementary). It’s like when a child tries to outwit their parents by telling a very obvious lie. The adult punishes the child to put them back in their place. Hate to use that analogy, but the producers are going to retaliate. That is NOT what will move the negotiations ahead. It will set it further behind and cause them to dig their heels in the sand even more. If the WGA is going to play the game (so to speak) at the negotiating table, they’ve got to come with something stronger and less obvious than this (we all KNOW the WGA is not holding out for reality tv and, guess what, so do the producers).
Personally I think Reality TV is a waste of air space and brain cells. It’s just drama created for the TV.
I loathe Reality TV and don’t watch an ounce of it. I prefer to watch shows with great acting and story telling. Something that takes me away from my normal day… I don’t need to watch fake Reality drama, when scripted drama is so much better.
Bring back my scripted drama’s that’s where the good stuff is at…
TV Fan
“When all of this is done, I have a 30-page script for a 22-minute show, and I turn my work over to an editor who, while excellent at switching camera angles, making montages, picking music cues, and cutting out “ums,” and brilliant at making a satisfying VISUAL narrative, couldn’t tell a coherent STORY to save his or her life.”
Hey Reality Writer, not to get in a pissing match, but quite frankly I’ve worked on quite a few big name reality shows, and have never seen a reality “script” or stringout that bore any resemblance to the final product. The editors on reality shows create the stories. Period. There’s a reason we’re paid more than Story Producers and there’s a reason Top Model could fire their story department and nobody could tell the difference. I’ve never worked on a show where I didn’t have to go back to the raw footage to figure out how to make the story work. If you worked with an editor who couldn’t tell a coherent story then you worked with a crap editor. Do I think story editors are abused in reality, sure. Do I think they deserve health and pension, yes. We all do. But are reality Story Producers entitled to the same payscale as writers on scripted shows, hell no! There’s a reason the WGA wanted to represent the Reality Editors, because they knew who truly were the writers on these shows. That being said you sound like a great Story Producer, certainly more competent than most, and we’d probably make a great team! See I can also play nice.
Union membership or not, everyone who works on a network television show, in any capacity, should get health insurance.
It seems to me that a lot of writers here are letting ego get in the way of business when it comes to deciding who they ought to be in a union with.
Certainly, writing for Heroes is a lot different from writing for a reality show (although I think that cable show with the baby sextuplets is really great; how can you beat baby sextuplets???). If you want to have separate award categories for shows like Heroes and shows like the sextuplet show, tht makes sense.
But, if you want the ability to bring movies and TV to a screeching halt when you go out on strike, it seems to me that you want your bargaining unit to include conventional script writers and as many reasonable substitutes for conventional script writers as possible. To the extent that you legally can do so, you want to be in a union together with animation script writers’ reality TV show writers, editors and producers; essentially all editors and producers who do much shaping of stories; and probably some other people that I can’t think of.
If you can’t be in the same union as reality TV writers because they’re in too weak of a position to unionize, and you can’t be in the same union as editors because their position is so much stronger, well, that’s life.
If you refuse to be in the same union as reality TV writers and editors because their grammar is shaky, that’s self-destructive.
I asked this earlier and it never made it to post…so I’m trying again.
First (not in the original post) I have never asked ANYONE to omit from their t/card nor have I ever asked anyone to use a mileage sheet to log overtime. That is against not only Labor Law it is un-ethical and should be reported. I’m appalled that would be taken in stride and done without question.
Secondly, (original post) does the WGA ask for feedback from its members? I see you’re getting e-mails updating you on (non)progress but do you get a chance to respond or comment?
My experience w/r/t the mileage sheet happened on three different shows (back when I was a lowly assistant) and to be honest, I didn’t know any better when I went along with it.
The post production coordinator on the show I worked the first time it happened (a crappy precursor to American Idol) was a seriously unpleasant, borderline sociopathic piece of work. She gave all of us heavy pressure to fill in the time cards and mileage sheets as instructed or not get paid and possibly get fired. The other shows used this tactic less egregiously, but still used it. On this same program I received a Sunday morning phone call re: an emergency meeting at the office. I drove down to Hollywood and realized I had been roped into a five-minute meeting that led directly into a Sunday workday that lasted until late evening. Mileage sheets covered me that time as well.
Another show I worked (a rather well-known matchmaking competition program with romances that notoriously fail to last) used the old “you get paid a weekly rate so anything you work over 40 hours isn’t considered overtime” tactic. Which is why a lot of people I knew in story positions there were working 60 hour weeks, 7 days per week, and getting the same lousy rate.
These issues were not uncommon at all, though my last three experiences were very pleasant and the story crew was treated with respect, comparatively speaking. I’ve had as many phenomenal bosses (cheers to PB&J Television, among others) as lousy ones. But there’s certainly a system in place that companies with fewer scruples can easily exploit.
Despite my thoughts that story producers tend to occasionally overstate the importance of their roles on certain shows, and despite my concerns about some shows eliminating story producer roles rather than paying them more and giving them benefits–based on the Top Model precedent–I really do think the story producers should strike en masse at some point for those basic rights. I’m just not sure that it should come into play with this particular strike. Though I could always change my mind!
It’s worse that it happened when you were an Assistant – those positions are notoriously under-paid, over-worked and abused to within one-inch of their life.
The Weekly rate issue MIGHT be correct – there are exemptions to the OT rule – but I doubt that is why they were doing what they did.
I agree that the Story Producers and for that matter any position that uses the term “Producer” to cover the fact that they are doing WGA, IA occupations or Editors Guild duties. They deserve recognition AND the benefits that are due them.
Honestly, the ones who should strike are the Assistants who get screwed without a thank-you or a smile.
Glad to hear you were treated better as time went on.
Reality Writer,
I understand that’s what most “story editors” do on reality shows like Survivor and The Real World etc. Makes sense. But Dancing With the Stars is supposedly WGA governed and I can’t for the life of me figure out what those writers do other than write the little segueways like “Welcome to the Dancing With the Stars”, “Here’s Celine Dion!” and “What a great show.” In other words, about five percent of the show’s content (if that).
Say what you will about reality shows but Dancing With The Stars regularly pulled in 20 million viewers and American Idol does even better. Meanwhile, I’m reveling in Janice Dickinson Modeling Agency because, let’s face it, it’s better written than most of the shit that’s on even without a strike. If the quality of scripted shows wasn’t so piss poor, people wouldn’t watch reality.
As a long time TV editor, the truth about cheap “make over” reality shows dominating cable is the video editors do write these shows while cutting the shots together. The lazy producers of these show send an ENG crew out, shoot 10 hours of videotape, hand the box of tapes to me and basically say “make a compelling four act show the network will love”. If there IS a VO script writer on the show, they come in after the fact and follow the narrative I’VE edited out. I don’t even need them since I could write the simplistic lines they hand over to me, but don’t because I’m not being paid to do that. When it comes to most reality TV, the editors are KING and deserve to be well paid for making something from nothing.