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So righteous that the grunts who ARE weekly worker ants who execute what they write will have no money to pay rent. I have no sympathy for anyone who’s griping about not getting extra money later on after the work has been done for months and years. So many writers so moral and ethical that only when their interests are endangered do they speak up. The buck is the bottom line. Admit it, or at least some of you would realize the laws that the lawmakers break are a little more important than that backend dollar. Greed breeds greed.
Sony shuns SAG and WGA to their detriment. Talented showrunners no longer bring their pilots to Sony. Instead they wind up with bubble shows like the unwatchable Til Death and Rules of Engagement.
Anything and anyone of any merit will go elsewhere, even moreso after SDSU stunt.
Talented Individual,
I guess I’m missing the ethical nuance that lets you post anonymously while trashing someone else for posting anonymously.
And I assume you chose the pseudonym “Talented Individual” because that way anyone you’ve ever worked with would never suspect it was you.
talented individual,
I agree with you that this is not about IATSE bashing. I certainly never meant to gave that impression — I think the studios are just using these unions against each other.
I support all the artists and production workers on these shows — they should all be paid more fairly and have a greater share in the success of these shows. I really believe that.
The real sign that something is awry here is that this show hired 14 writers, ALL of whom are affiliated with the WGA, then tried to trick and/or force (depending on your interpretation) all of them to work under IATSE contracts. Sony has every right to make a show that is covered by IATSE. Why didn’t they hire any IATSE writers? Then they would have had no problem at all! Even if they had hired a FEW IATSE writers it might be less transparent. But it is hard to look at this situation and not see that there is something “off” about the fact that they hired 14 WGA writers and then said “not WGA.”
It would be the same thing if a group of IATSE members were hired on a show and then told it was going to be covered by the “Drawing People Union.” Sorry, guys, but the minimums are lower and also you will get a different health plan and by the way we will contribute to the Drawer’s Union Pension but it will take you 9 years to vest. It sort of begins to obviate the point of being in a union at all.
Now if only my son would start looking for some gainful employment…
A. Grunt,
It is clear on many levels that you are not a writer.
Talented Individual -
While IATSE is a true union when it comes to representing many below the line workers, it is NOT a real union when it comes to repping writers. They have ZERO support for writers, NEVER involve themselves in issues such as separated rights, script registration, script arbitration, residuals etc. Even the president of the IATSE Animation Guild publicly expresses his ambivalence for repping writers. To suggest that IA is a “real” union for writers is a cynical joke. On these message boards, I’ve NEVER seen a post by an IA writer sticking up for his union. NOT ONE. Have you?
In case you don’t know this history of this industry, IATSE has often been used by the studios as a battering ram to hurt other unions. You might want to check out this history lesson on an IATSE LOCAL’S OWN SITE:
http://www.iatse728.org/home/strike.htm
Re: “Comment by Ted — July 2, 2008 @ 5:08 pm”
Is that Ted Elliott?
StopTheBullCrap wrote Even the president of the IATSE Animation Guild publicly expresses his ambivalence for repping writers.
Since I’m the president of the Animation Guild I’d be curious to know where I’ve revealed my supposed ambivalence for TAG representing writers. Perhaps you can enlighten us.
The reality is that the Animation Guild has repped animation writers for almost six decades, and we work as hard for writers as we do for all the other animation job classifications. Our business agent is a former animation writer, and three of our executive board members are working writers. Like all unions, we don’t get everything we want, but the charge that TAG doesn’t care about writers and doesn’t fight for them is nonsense.
You also wrote On these message boards, I’ve NEVER seen a post by an IA writer sticking up for his union. NOT ONE. Have you?
I’ve attempted to leave a comment here at Deadlinehollywooddialy three different times, usually to correct misinformation in either an original post or in the comments sections. Unlike most here, I use my real name and link back to the Animation Guild blog. None of those comments have ever been allowed through. You can decide why that is, but don’t take the fact that no comments defending the Animation Guild are published to mean that no such comments are ever written.
Perhaps I overstated your position. But you’ve definitely expressed your ambivalence about the SDSU situation, saying it was a dispute between the writers and you guys wanted nothing to do with it. Also, on your blog, you and your blogmate Steve seem to readily admit that writers are better served by the WGA than the 839, because you balance their needs with the needs everyone else in IA. Do I get this wrong? (I’m referring to your defense of the practice that IA writers get no residuals.)
Actually, STBC, you completely misstated my position. There is a difference, though I thank you for your partial acknowledgement.
You’re correct that Steve has written that the SDSU situation is the result of miscommunication and misrepresentation between that group of writers and management at Sony, and didn’t involve the Animation Guild or the IATSE riding in to do a back room deal. The TAG contract with Sony Adelaide has been in existence for at least a dozen years, and that deal includes writers. As has been pointed out, Sony management could have made arrangements to put the SDSU writers in a separate production company, one that could have been organized by the WGA, but Sony would have needed to do that from the start. There are legal issues in starting a production under one union’s representation and then switching midstream. If any of the writers or writer’s agents had bothered to call the TAG office to clarify the situation when they were initially informed that it was an IA/TAG show (which the writers have acknowledged they were told), a lot of grief could have been avoided. I’ve been told that someone high up on the management side subsequently made a promise they couldn’t keep, but it still would have only taken a phone call to clarify things out before they reached the breaking point.
The shame of it is that it now appears that the entire show might well be scuttled. That sucks for the 14 writers, and it sucks for the scores of artists and animation professionals who were counting on that show for salary and benefits.
As a side note, and contrary to what gets spread around, there is no war between TAG and the WGA. The WGA frequently makes statements that misrepresent the situation in animation and that misrepresent what TAG actually offers, but frankly it’s just so much hot air. TAG has represented writers and story artists in animation for close to 60 years, and I’m convinced that if TAG didn’t exist then a large portion of those people wouldn’t be covered by ANY union. Yes, the WGA has done a good job over the last 8-10 years of covering most prime-time animation writers. And we don’t begrudge them that in the slightest. We love it when creative people, be they artists or writers, get good deals. In the past Steve and I have met with WGA organizers to discuss joint efforts at organizing some of the animation studios that aren’t covered by any union.
But if you look at the WGA’s lack of success in animation outside of prime-time TV, and if you look at the concessionary contracts they’ve signed in the few cases where they have succeeded outside of prime time (i.e., NO residuals), then you’ll start to understand what I’m getting at.
If you cut through the hyperbole and hysteria, TAG provides excellent benefits and decent wages for those in animation, despite animation’s status as the red haired step child of Hollywood. Sure, it’s unfair, but ‘fair’ never carried a bit of weight in this town.
By the way, residuals are collected for those working under the Animation Guild contracts (writers, animators, and everyone else we cover). Those residuals go into the benefits plan, which is why our health coverage (and the ease with which a writer can qualify for that coverage) is superior to that of the WGA. Last year over $350 million dollars in residuals went the Motion Picture Pension and Health Plan coffers, to provide for the benefits of those in the Animation Guild (and other west coast local). Yeah, it’s not mailbox money, but residuals are. collected and do benefit the creatives (writers AND artists) on those shows.
After reading all of this, I wonder if anyone can explain to me what it meant when the WGA listed as one of its bargaining chips that it should have jurisdiction over animation. What does this mean?
As I understand labor, aren’t employees generally organized first, thereby leveraging management to capitulate? As in what the WGA did for Simpsons at Fox? If the WGA states it wants animation, are they saying they want to cover everyone creating for animation? Or do they grandfather out current productions and accept all future animation? Writers already organized in animation and writers not organized in animation? Artists who also write in animation? It is unclear what that demand was about. Although it is obvious it has created a lot of animosity.
The writers on Til Death are WGA. It’s a Sony show, on Fox, prime time, so why can’t the writers on SDSU be WGA? I know the set is AFTRA. That stinks and Brad Garrett, the cast and staff should protest that. I’ve never met an AFTRA actor who didn’t want to join SAG instead.
What if, in solidarity, every Sony actor, writer, director, worker, on every prime time show walked off for a day in protest? We should get to be in the union of our choice, NOT OF SONY’S CHOICE.
Better yet, why doesn’t SAG and AFTRA merge? And the WGA and IATSE merge? Both our unions would be bigger. We wouldn’t bicker back and forth. We could use the best benefits each union had to offer to rebuild the new combined union. I’m sure no studio wants to see this happen, but bottom feeders like Sony wouldn’t have a choice if there were only one actors union and one writers union.
We creatives need to stick together. Let’s JOIN together. Until then, those who have the power; the show runners, the big name actors, respected writers – should demand that the shows they work on will only be SAG and WGA.
Good for the writers of SDSU for taking a stand! All of the animation writers who want to join the WGA should walk off the job next week, too. Everyone sticks together, they can’t replace us all. They’ll have to deal with our demands.
Hi Kevin.
I am a “dual” card holder. I have worked quite a bit in both unions, and unfortunately it does cause some inconsistencies and issues in health insurance and retirement planning, but that’s life. I do appreciate your thoughtful response.
I also want to add that I believe TAG is an excellent union, and I am aware of the great health coverage and the different residual structure. I am also aware (from some experience on the management side) that TAG fights fiercely to protect its members, their working conditions, etc.
And while I have never met you, I have met Steve H. several times, so I know and trust the union leadership. Steve is hard-working, passionate, cares about the members, and he’s also has a great no-nonsense ability to cut through the B.S. I suspect that STBC conflated you and Steve in mis-stating TAG’s position.
This paragraph you wrote struck me:
“The shame of it is that it now appears that the entire show might well be scuttled. That sucks for the 14 writers, and it sucks for the scores of artists and animation professionals who were counting on that show for salary and benefits.”
It seems to me that TAG and WGA should both have motivation to find a way for this to work, and NOT have the show scuttled. Many members from both unions will lose jobs if a solution is not reached.
This seems like a wonderful opportunity for TAG and the WGA to do something together that will protect all their members in these shows… hammer out a compromise on this one, bring it to Sony, make it happen — since Sony’s official rejection of the writers’ request is based on claiming that their hands are tied by their obligations to your union and to IATSE, a compromise that was brought as a joint proposal of BOTH unions to save ALL the jobs might work.
Sony would get its show, and they would get to do the “right” thing in fulfilling their obligations to both unions.
And all these people would get to work.
What do you think? Is there a reason why this isn’t a desirable solution to pursue?
Thanks for your attention… hope I’m not being too naive about this, but my sense is that at least within TAG and WGA there are good intentions all around, and it would be great if you could work together.
Thanks, TAG/WGA member, for the good words. It warms my heart to see some of what you wrote in print (we hear this stuff privately, but public acknowledgement is sadly rare). You wrote “It seems to me that TAG and WGA should both have motivation to find a way for this to work, and NOT have the show scuttled. Many members from both unions will lose jobs if a solution is not reached.”
If it were an easy thing to break one union’s contract to replace it with another’s, studios would find ways to do it all the time. First and foremost, every party involved (Sony, TAG, the IATSE, and the WGA) would all have to cooperate. Cooperation between TAG and the WGA would not be sufficient. But even then there’s a problem. Here’s a very brief summary from Craig Mazin at artfulwriter.com summarizing why this compromise is impossible: And IA couldn’t just “let the writers go” if they wanted to. Doesn’t work that way. There has to be a deauthorization vote, everyone in the unit votes including non-writing members who don’t have another union to even go to, yadda yadda, long story short…ain’t happening.
Later you wrote: “. . .my sense is that at least within TAG and WGA there are good intentions all around . . .”
I wish I could agree with you that the WGA has had good intentions all around, or that TAG’s intentions were taken into consideration for even a moment in this whole mess.
The first anyone at TAG heard about his was when it was already in the press, with the WGA trumpeting that this was proof that the studios intended to undercut the WGA ["And then IATSE's Local 839 -- the so-called Animation Guild Local (formerly Motion Picture Screen Cartoonists) -- arrived to everyone's shock and dismay."]. We also read statements from WGA mouthpieces that were less than accurate about TAG (something that’s been going on a long time, and has actually made things worse for working writers). Not exactly the basis for compromise and working together.
To date, no one from the SDSU writers, the writer’s agents, or the WGA has contacted anyone at TAG in an official capacity to try to work anything out. Steve Hulett did bump into one of the involved writers, and got a little background information, but that’s been it for direct contact. You can’t work together by yourself.
Here’s the summary: Someone at the WGA should have explained to the writers months ago that they had two options. One, use their leverage to bargain for a WGA-like deal under TAG (it’s been done before, and my word is that Sony was willing to do it here). Two, screw the show, and let the entire crew get flushed when the show is dumped. There really hasn’t been a third option from the start.
WE THE ARTIST should get to choose our union. Period. Not Sony. Sony needs to legally undo their connection to these cheap-money-saving unions or risk not doing business with pro WGA and SAG members. Come on Brad Garrett, David Spade, Hudson — all the rest of you Sony stars, take a stand!
At the very least the WGA and IASTSE should sumo wrestle to win reign supreme on Sony’s projects. Sell tickets and proceeds go to the strike relief fund.
Kevin,
You seemed like you were having a reasonable, professional discussion about this until you said: “Two, screw the show, and let the entire crew get flushed when the show is dumped.”
Now I see you’re just another corporate tool lackey like your boss. How’d you like it if someone said that about your members — that if they wanted a show to be under their regular union they were really just screwing the rest of the people who worked on the show.
That’s management propaganda, pal. I’m not surprised to hear that coming from IATSE, but don’t act like your above it and out for the working writer and then drop all this crap on us. What a jerk.
Seriously, EVERY primetime animated show is WGA. Every single one. Couple that with the fact that — AS YOU YOURSELF SAY — a “high-ranking” Sony exec told the writers it would be WGA, and who are the ones getting screwed here? Seems like it’s the WGA writers, not the other members of the crew. Sure if the show goes away they’ll lose their jobs, and nobody wants that to happen, but did you forget that you run a union? For workers? How’d you like it if IATSE struck and it meant the shutdown of a project and everyone said, “IATSE doesn’t care about anyone else” or “IATSE should take a bad deal so others can stay employed.” You are just another IATSE management mouthpiece.
What a damn shame and an outrage for you to act like you’re a real union or a real union man. You’re an embarrassment.
WGA writer, I decided long ago that ad hominem attacks by anonymous trolls weren’t worth my time, so I’ll let the shrill and sadly predictable portions of your response roll off my back.
I acknowledge that I used some inflammatory phrases in detailing the ‘second option,’ but it’s still accurate. The writers and their agents were originally informed that SDSU was a TAG 839 show. That is not in dispute. Despite what any high-ranking Sony exec might have said subsequently, if the writer’s agents had investigated (i.e., made a single phone call), or if someone at the WGA had bothered to explain to them how labor law works, they would have realized they had only the two options I described.
Let me put the last paragraph in less pejorative terms:
Someone at the WGA should have explained to the writers months ago that they had two options. One, use their leverage to bargain for a WGA-like deal under TAG (it’s been done before, and my information is that Sony was willing to do it here). Two, continue to work on the show so other writers wouldn’t be hired, then refuse to continue working at the point when entire crew was hired and ready to put the show into full production, thereby making it extremely likely that everyone would be let go and the show canceled. There really hasn’t been a third option from the start.
You should also know that, while all four Fox prime-time animated shows have writers covered by the WGA, there HAVE been plenty of prime-time shows written under TAG 839, including the recent Father of the Pride. In fact, the Father of the Pride brouhaha, which was pretty much parallel the SDSU debacle, should have alerted writers and agents everywhere that in fact the WGA does not and has never had some kind of automatic coverage of prime-time animation.
What’s happened on SDSU has been a disaster for both the writers and animators involved. Unfortunately, the animators have been along for the ride, and have had no say as the bus had been driven over a cliff. Sorry if that offends, but it’s the truth. Yes, there are Sony execs who have dirty hands in this deal. I don’t dispute that for a moment. But this has also been a PR bonanza for the WGA, which loses nothing if the show is canceled, and in fact can point to the show being canceled as a triumph of standing up to the corporate masters. It’s ironic, but not surprising, that you see no shame or outrage in that.
Hi Kevin, are you really the leader of this union? You don’t sound very professional, or statesmanlike, or capable of leadership. Well, that’s not fair. You did in your first few posts here, which were well thought out and measured. But then in those last two posts the wheels came off. Did you let your emotions get the best of you, or are you simply a hothead? Either way, if I were a member of your union, do you think I’d want my leader going on record using words like “troll” and acting juvenile? I doubt it.
As for your last post, I guess you’re being sarcastic when you say, “Let me put that last paragraph in less pejorative terms” because what follows is as nasty and disingenuous as possible.
Do you really think that the writers on this show only had one option (since your second option given is just a facetious bit of nastiness). You say their only option was to bargain for “a WGA-like deal under TAG.” First of all, Kevin, I’ve been a WGA writer for many, many years. I never even heard of TAG until this current dispute. You seem to think you head a union along the lines of SAG, DGA or WGA but I’m sorry to say no one has really heard of you. I suppose you really exist but you certainly can’t really believe that a bunch of high-profile WGA writers would take a job — on a primetime show — thinking that it was going to involve working under the umbrella of some third-tier union they never heard of.
I mean, Sony obviously went after a bunch of WGA writers. Established, real writers like Hurwitz, Oakley, and Weinstein. And they went after these writers for a primetime scripted network show, every other one of which is a WGA show. And as you yourself admit above, a HIGH-RANKING Sony exec was telling them IT WOULD BE a WGA show. Why would these writers have done it otherwise? Why would they want their union contributions to go to some wannabe union that no one ever heard of and that apparently exists to represent writers working on the umpteenth version of Scooby Doo or something.
Seriously, Kevin, are you delusional? If there is some legal reason why Sony was unable to ever make this a WGA show — which I highly doubt — then isn’t your beef with Sony, not the WGA or its writers? If, as you say, you had information that Sony “was willing to do” a “WGA-like deal under TAG” then obviously your “information” ain’t worth crap, because again, as you yourself said, a HIGH-RANKING Sony exec was telling the writers that it would be WGA.
And I haven’t even gotten to the truly shocking — and stupid — part of your last post, which is when you say: the SDSU writers only other choice “was to continue to work so that other writers wouldn’t be hired” then “refuse to work once the rest of the cast was hired and the show was about to go into full production.” Don’t you think it much more likely that these writers — who were being told by a HIGH-RANKING Sony exec that it would be WGA — were thinking this exec was going to make it happen, and that these writers were led on for weeks, into months, and then when the show was finally about to begin “full production” these writers finally said “okay, enough, this is ridiculous, we can’t keep showing up if they’re not going to come through on what a HIGH-RANKING exec has been telling us.” I think that’s much more likely what happened, Kevin, and you know what — that IS what happened.
It’s truly incendiary of you to say the writers timed this intentionally to screw the rest of the cast. And it shows what a management-friendly tool you are that you point the finger at 14 lied-to writers instead of at the company that lied to them. What is the matter with you, Kevin? What kind of unhappy childhood must you have had to become such a sad little man, a man who claims to the public to represent writers, yet who repeatedly attacks writers every chance he gets. The writers “drove this bus over a cliff”? No, Kevin — this bus went over the cliff because Sony removed the bridge.
You should be ashamed of yourself.
Mitch Hurwtiz’s partner, Tannenbaum, was promising the writers that SDSU would be WGA. Now Mitch is calling half the writers trying to get them to come back, perhaps to cause a rift?! What the heck did we strike for MITCH??? It’s show runners like you that keeps the little guy down. Thanks for nothing!
Mitch Hurwitz is not a friend of the writer. Ask any writer who worked 7 days a week non-stop on Arrested Development. Also, ask Mitch how many days he picketed during the WGA strike. He bragged about it being less than a handful because he had to supervise building his new multimillion dollar mansion in the Palisades. How’d you like to be that contractor, by the way? Mitch is a good writer and can be a nice guy, but ultimately he’s out for himself. He has enough money that he should do the right thing here and stay strong behind the writers until the show is WGA. You haven’t been the bad guy in this so far, Mitch, don’t start now!
Kevin,
Sounds like you could have done something to keep those animators from being driven off a cliff, but you stood by and complained “no one was contacting you.” You should be fighting for our jobs.
This is Sony’s fault, but you are complicit in letting those jobs go away without a fight. Even if you had ultimately failed you could have done SOMETHING to fight for our members.
Kevin, you said:
“The writers and their agents were originally informed that SDSU was a TAG 839 show. That is not in dispute.”
This is wrong actually. The first writers hired were not told.
A few can prove they were told more than a week after they had started working.
Later writers hired were told, then immediately assured it was going to be “fixed.”
The statement you made may be Sony’s party line at this point, but it’s not true. But should that be surprising?
Despite my skepticism that “839 Member” is really a member of TAG, I’ll respond. You say it sounds like I could have done something. I’d love to know what I or Steve Hulett or anyone at TAG could have done about a situation that we had absolutely zero knowledge about until it was a fait accompli. We got wind of what was happening when it broke here at Deadline Hollywood Daily. That was a few months after the whole situation began, and well after there was any room to maneuver.
Sony could have chosen to put the writers into a shell production company, and allowed that production company to be organized. But they needed to do that at the very beginning. They chose not to, even when the writers complained. From that point on, the die was cast. No one at 839 has the power or ability to unilaterally disavow jurisdiction.
As for us fighting for those jobs, it’s up to Sony whether the show gets made. No union, TAG, WGA, SAG, DGA, and the Teamsters included, can greenlight a show. Sony took this production down the path it’s followed; that’s been something TAG has no control over.
You can be sure that we’ve spoken to the IATSE, to Sony reps, and even to WGA reps about the situation. I’d love it if this were in TAG’s control. But it ain’t.
Now, maybe when you write “you could have done SOMETHING to fight for our members” I’d love to hear what you specifically have in mind? Was there some trick we missed, some card we could have played? If so, I’ll be the first to admit it, and try to rectify the situation. But empty rhetoric isn’t action.
To SDSU writer, I believe you. What I wrote was based on what Steve Hulett was told by one of the SDSU writers, by what Sony labor relations has told us, and by what we’ve heard from some other well-placed sources I won’t identify, but who were in a position to know. Nikki has also written that the writers were initially told it was an IA show. But I realize that there are 14 writers involved, and that they weren’t all hired at the same time nor necessarily told the same thing.
I think the consistency here is that at least some of the writers and their agents knew early on in the process that the show was slated to be a TAG show, and when they balked, a prominent Sony exec quickly gave assurances (assurances that he wasn’t authorized to give). And Sony do not follow through on those assurances, the show remained a TAG show, months later it all blew up in the press, and here we are.
I think it’s clear that writers were misled, and that sucks. But the problem remains that once the boat left the dock, once production got started under the TAG contract, switching the writers to a new production company so they could be organized under the WGA was no longer really an option. Labor law just doesn’t work that way. (I should also note that, to my knowledge, Sony has never contacted TAG about even exploring such an option, so it’s not like we’ve even been given the chance to try to find a solution.)