SAG national executive director Doug Allen responds to DGA president Michael Apted’s membership letter about New Media published in the September issue of Directors Guild’s monthly magazine. The issue really is whether the Hollywood guilds can survive if they keep acquiescing to employer demands encouraging union signatories to produce non-union. Both statements follow:
DOUG ALLEN, SAG
“I think what really stands logic on its head is the idea that the way to organize union work is to encourage signatories to produce non-union under our contracts.“It is not appropriate to wait until new media reigns supreme to assert jurisdiction. Just as we have done in over 700 promulgated new media agreements covering low budget productions averaging $2,500 per minute, and just as we have covered low budget feature productions for 30 years, Screen Actors Guild has a workable framework for low budget new media production.
“SAG coverage of all new media productions would not result in more non-union production but rather would result in more union production. SAG members will do their part by adhering to Rule 1 and declining non-union work; we have to do our part by making sure work opportunities are covered by a union contract.”
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MICHAEL APTED, DGA
“Giving New Media Room to Grow” — Published in September 2008 issue of DGA MonthlyDear Members,
As we move into the third month of our new contract, I wanted to take this opportunity to address the issue of union jurisdiction over new media production – the question of whether all the writers, actors, and directors who work on studio-produced programming for the Internet must be covered by union contracts. This issue – new media jurisdiction – was central to all the guild negotiations this year because however entertainment evolves over the next few decades, it is clear that a significant part is going to be online.In our contract negotiations earlier this year, we made the decision to allow an exception to our general policy of insisting on jurisdiction over every show made by the studios and production companies that are signatories to the DGA contract. The exception, which the Writers Guild and AFTRA also chose to include in their new contracts, allows producers to make low-budget “experimental” programs for the Internet that hire people who would not be covered by our contract. However, we built into our agreement a very important protection – if a signatory company on a new media production employs a professional as director or in any other DGA category, regardless of the budget level – that production is covered by the Guild agreement.
Critics of this approach argue that union jurisdiction must be absolute. If some productions are allowed to be non-union, they claim, producers will take advantage of the loopholes and eventually all productions will be non-union. But before there can be a union job, there has to be a job. And despite all the grandiose talk about the coming bonanza, new media hasn’t yet started raining money. The truth is that for new media production to realize its undeniably vast potential – and create all those jobs we want our members to have – it must be given the room to evolve and grow. The current landscape of new media is overwhelmingly populated by user-generated content and all kinds of concepts created by thousands upon thousands of eager novices with digital cameras and new, out-of-the-box ideas. Occasionally, one of these efforts might catch the attention of the studios, and the new media jurisdictional carve-out will allow producers of extremely low-budget productions to take a chance with young, untried writers, directors, and actors who are not members of any union. If their efforts yield fruit and their shows succeed, their budgets will quickly reach professional levels and they will come under union jurisdiction. If they don’t succeed– well, at least they got their shot. That’s the nature of experimentation. We must be flexible to allow that experimentation to flourish.
What would happen if the unions were to demand and be given jurisdiction over all new media production without exception? The most likely scenario is that it would become structurally and economically unfeasible for AMPTP members to make low-budget experimental shows for the Internet. Then two things could happen. First, rather than grow within the studios and companies that are guild signatories, new media production would gravitate toward the Googles and Microsofts of the world, which are not. Second, to stay competitive in the game, the studios are likely to create non-union subsidiaries where they could produce Internet programs without bothering to become signatories at all. At this point, the talent guilds would be in danger of being pushed out of new media. Were an experimental show to succeed, it wouldn’t come under union jurisdiction, nor would the writers, actors, and directors who created it.
Even if the studios were persuaded to make low-budget new media production under union jurisdiction, this could result in another problem. Many of those untested novices would be required to pay DGA initiation fees and dues, potentially forcing the DGA to accept a large number of new members who have been hired to do one experimental project and might never direct again. Frankly, it would not be fair to charge them initiation fees and dues (which they probably couldn’t afford in any case).
So we have a choice. We can insist on having jurisdiction on paper over everything, and thereby run the risk that the area develops in a largely non-union context. Or we can carve out an exception that will allow experimentation, innovation and growth at the lowest budget levels, while simultaneously securing jurisdiction over all professional-level productions. That approach ensures that if and when the producers become successful, the jobs they’ve created will go union. This approach has been successful before. With very low-budget feature films, we designed an innovative, flexible jurisdictional carve-out that allowed the new medium to develop in a way that ensured that once it was ready for professionals, those professionals would be our members.
I believe we’ve made the right decision.
Editor-in-Chief Nikki Finke - tip her here.


look, the point about the independents signing up to SAG’s interim deal is this; THEY NEVER PAY UP THE RESIDUALS, whereas the big 5 studios always do….I am an actor and I have currently 12 projects that I have shot over the years, indies, which I see on tv all the time, and on dvd, and i have never seen a goddamn cent. Let’s live in the real world here. At least the big 5, for all their bullshit, PAY UP when the ferryman shows.
What an example of logic vs. unresonibleness. The DGA writes a well reasoned response laying out the new media problems and the response back is we have a low budjet solution. Does that involve forcing a novice to pay dues they can’t afford to a group they may not want to join to make a personel project for a small amount of money to put on the internet. I would go to google or MSN or anyone else to stay away from the guilds period. The Studios will certainly go the route of aquireing or developing internet subsidiaries through their parent corporations that would not be under the guilds jurisdictions just as the DGA noted. Unless the Guilds plan to reduce their dues to such a low level to accomodate the thousands of internet amateurs to make their production union. Many of these shows you can see on youtube including the stupid ones aren’t covered now are they? How are the guilds going to supress the democratization of entertainment on the internet. Go to the governemnt and tax all the digital cameras that are sold so high that only rich hollywood guys could buy them. The same for webcams etc. Face it once regular people figure out they can make as entertaining stuff as the hollywood elite the monopoly is over.
It’s all in the details.
Apted makes very reasonable points, but if they’ve set the budget bar at the wrong level, which is the fear of many people, then the studios can take advantage of that and make it a loophole to create a bundle of cheap content on the backs of newbies.
On the other hand, SAG needs to recognize that non-studio newbie producers often have *literally* no budgets to work with. They might have for one project, but then literally none for others. So if they sign a SAG agreement saying they will only do union productions from now on, then they are put in an extreme bind — do that one project which they were able to scrape a budget together for (but then never be able to do anything again until they get another budget together), or don’t work with SAG and just do everything non-union until they become successful? And if SAGs response is that these independent producers should set up a separate LLC corporation to do non-union work, then they clearly don’t get the concept of someone having no money.
In theory, I would like to side with Doug Allen, but it is then on SAG to figure out a way to make their rules flexible enough so that it stops the big studios from taking advantage of everyone, but also recognizes the situation that newbie independent producers are in.
“…once regular people figure out they can make as entertaining stuff as the hollywood elite the monopoly is over.”
Sort of. The playing field is leveled. But this fact remains: any number of creative people with digital cameras can make entertaining content for the internet… but only a few organizations have the structure, capital and network to turn it into a huge profit-making venture.
There will always be ‘big fish’ – studios and networks who have the marketing ability to deliver products to mass audiences. Those of us who have good ideas and make “experimental” projects actually want to get picked up by the studios, and we want to get into the union!
If the system can allow for non-union actors, writers and directors to shop their “experimental” content to the majors, get picked up, and become union in the process… isn’t that a great thing?
orson: I wrote, directed and acted in one indie, and wrote and directed a 2nd, and, yes, YOU have to stay on it, but if you do, you stand a much better chance of getting paid. I have HOUNDED the dga (I had to join for the 2nd feature) for residuals – and they’ve gone after them. I also remember seeing sag residuals for the first.
the dga is good with residuals, but you have to stay on them to the point you annoy them. sag is getting better with residuals – the sag.org residuals tracker is great and the dga lists them specifically as well.
the dga has the power to get all the information regarding sales so they can track residuals. otherwise? producers won’t pay you. they’ll pocket it themselves.
but as far as your salary and a contract as a director in indies? forget it. I directed 2, and had an enforceable contract for neither. when I pushed for one, the money guy or the creative producer would threaten not to make the film to keep me in line.
indie film is straight-up fucked right now. it runs on adrenaline and caffeine from young “ignorance is bliss” directors who won’t stop till they get it done. then, if you’re stupid lucky, you get into one of, maybe 3 festivals where the POSSIBILITY exists that your film will get bought. 95% of them don’t. then, it’s self distribute – a lesson in ass-fucking and money hemorrhaging – or, it’s a service deal – you pay THEM (a company – IFC – etc) to release the film for you.
the people getting paid in indie film? whomever has control of the budget – a crafty indie creative producer vet – will know exactly how to extricate some money for him or herself without the financial guy – usually a complete novice – knowing anything.
so that’s a BIT of money for someone. actors get low budget sag scale. crew gets shit. they often do it to “move up” 2nd a.d. to 1st – that kind of thing, the writer director gets an agreed upon “fee” that he or she gets in dribs and drabs and has to threaten to quit to actually pocket what they’re owed.
the ONLY way people make money is if you hit a grand slam at sundance, toronto or cannes and the film gets picked up for real money. then, your producers will take what’s left after they pay their bills, and stick it in their pocket. if you’re supposed to get a cut of the sale – you better stay on them like white on rice, and it can lead to the end of relationships, cause when these indie producers get actual money in their hands? forget it – it’s gone.
then – back end? forget it. dga has NO authority to trace your back end. you CAN get the numbers from dga and add everything up: the sale, the dvd income the foreign dvd and cable deals, and put that next to what you know the film cost cause you have access to the final cost statement the producer HAS to file with dga. but, if you think they’re ripping you off – YOU have to hire a lawyer. and 9 out of 10 times – they’re banking that you can’t afford it, or that, once you pay the lawyer, it won’t be worth it.
anyway – it’s a rip-off cluster-fuck. if you get one made and get into a top festival, and get ANY kind of release at all – you’re one out of 10,000. making money? not gonna happen. they’ll rip you off every time. you gotta sue the fuckers.
it’s grim, but it’s do-able. you just gotta be relentless and expect to make no money.
now – is that RIGHT? hell no. and I didn’t even touch on how stupid some of these people are and how badly they can fuck up a release. that’s a whole other story.
michael apted’s letter, my responses, jonathan handel’s reaction, my responses:
I’m in sag/aftra/dga aea
26 years in
I’ve written and directed 2 indies, both under a million bucks. one non-union, one-union.
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However, we built into our agreement a very important protection – if a signatory company on a new media production employs a professional as director or in any other DGA category, regardless of the budget level – that production is covered by the Guild agreement.
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yes. true. but the whole point of these very high “floors”? is EXACTLY to give the amptp plenty of wiggle room NOT to use “covered performers.” see, LOGIC dictates this as the REASON the producers have structured it this way.
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And despite all the grandiose talk about the coming bonanza, new media hasn’t yet started raining money. The truth is that for new media production to realize its undeniably vast potential – and create all those jobs we want our members to have – it must be given the room to evolve and grow.
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the naivete from a seasoned professional is breathtaking. just insert “vhs/dvd” for new media in this paragraph. it’s actually sad.
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What would happen if the unions were to demand and be given jurisdiction over all new media production without exception? The most likely scenario is that it would become structurally and economically unfeasible for AMPTP members to make low-budget experimental shows for the Internet.
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the amptp is GOING to be making new media product. BANK ON IT. THEY ALREADY ARE. is he arguing they would forgo new media if the creative had held the line on a percentage deal, which would give the producers the “flexibility” to “experiment” without FIXED OBLIGATIONS to the creative guilds if the projects tank? of course not. the amptp is ALREADY in the new media business. the question is simply, under what kind of a contract would the creative unions be involved? apted included a huge a non-union space, and he chose it first – thereby creating the “template”
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Even if the studios were persuaded to make low-budget new media production under union jurisdiction, this could result in another problem. Many of those untested novices would be required to pay DGA initiation fees and dues, potentially forcing the DGA to accept a large number of new members who have been hired to do one experimental project and might never direct again. Frankly, it would not be fair to charge them initiation fees and dues (which they probably couldn’t afford in any case).
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this is a straw man. the “novices” could easily be dealt with in terms of financially prohibitive entry fees to the dga. this is nonsense.
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So we have a choice. We can insist on having jurisdiction on paper over everything, and thereby run the risk that the area develops in a largely non-union context. Or we can carve out an exception that will allow experimentation, innovation and growth at the lowest budget levels, while simultaneously securing jurisdiction over all professional-level productions.
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mr. apted. the floors are exponentially higher than the current cost of content. this creates wiggle room the amptp can exploit in a myriad of ways to avoid unions, to avoid residuals. it is a recipe for disaster.
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This approach has been successful before. With very low-budget feature films, we designed an innovative, flexible jurisdictional carve-out that allowed the new medium to develop in a way that ensured that once it was ready for professionals, those professionals would be our members.
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doug allen makes the same argument for SAG, but without the non-union space. he says “we can and will work it out with the producers. we can be ‘flexible’ but – we cannot agree by contract – against our core principals – to a huge non-union space. ”
it is counter-intuitive, to put it kindly, for a union to sign a contract that ALLOWS non-union workers to come in and compete against its OWN MEMBERS.
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jonathan handel’s (anti-mf anti-sg) take on apted’s letter:
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Two points worth adding. First, the dollar thresholds are high — much higher than almost all new media production today ($2,000 – $5,000 per minute is typical, with occasional productions at $10,000 per minute). I’d prefer to see them lower, and this is (in my view) an unfortunate compromise that the DGA made.
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“unfortunate.” that’s one word to describe it. dumb. naive. dangerous. ill-advised. irresponsible. that’s a few others.
from first dollar and first airing, with a percentage deal that covers both the guilds and the producers. THAT’S the answer.
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The proposed SAG deal is reportedly similar to the AFTRA deal, and thus presumably includes this language. Thus, if a show uses a SAG, AFTRA or Equity member with two TV or movie credits or any of the other listed credits, then it’s covered, even if the budget is below the thresholds.
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the incentive for producers to use “covered” performers in a “non-union” space they have meticulously carved out and put over as a fair “compromise” with 3 of the 4 unions, is zero. the WHOLE POINT is to use non-union people, or, they would have agreed to a percentage deal.
Little Joe-
How is there money left over after you get your $2,000 a minute(finished and delivered) budget? Break it down for me please. Maybe you can enlighten every one with one of your budgets.
playmaker. point-taker. ball-breaker. knowledge faker. muck-raker.
not the point. the point is: WHATEVER the producers make? low, middle, high budget for the web?
actors, writers, directors, get a percentage from first dollar and first airing with no free windows.
if it’s pennies on a 2k budget? whatever – figure something out – say, everything from that show goes in an escrow account both the producers and the union have oversight for. after it tips a certain threshold? you start to dole out the percentage. that kind of a thing. that part’s easy.
getting these soulless bastards to agree to something fair is the real problem.
rather than apted writing letters defending the indefensible, he should be willing to say “it’s a bad deal.” then get verrone to say “it’s a bad deal.” then, get reardon to say “it’s a bad deal.” cause you know, it’s a bad deal, right?
they say:
“we got our foot in the door” (why should only our feet get paid?)
“it’s a start.”
“it’s better than nothing.”
these are like the endorsements calvin coolidge got.
how about, all 4 unions, regardless of what was signed, show up at nick counter’s dungeon and say “hey nick? you there? yeah, it’s us – buzz us up.”
then they go up, leave the weapons outside, and tell him 3 of the 4 of them fucked up. nobody’s to blame. but, nonetheless, here it is: we need a percentage deal on new media. and an agreement you won’t run to non-union signatories to make non-union content. and if we don’t get it? we’re gonna walk. together. you know a percentage is fair. we know it. so go tell that fat old bastard with the red toupe what’s what, and we have a deal that keeps the peace for the next 30 years. otherwise we go to the matresses.
you wanna solve this thing in two weeks? three people gotta lose some face, one guy has to be real humble and not say “I told you so,” and it’s back to work.
am I wrong?
Good one, Mike. Having fucked over the writers, it is now time to move on to undermining the actors and their union.
Little joe-
Now Joe I never disparaged you in any way. I thought we were adults having an intellectual discourse but i guess not. I am not a fan of your use of profanity. I am also offended that you would start by trying to write lyrics to a rap song(?) Or whatever it is by using my name in a patronizing and disparaging way, tsk tsk
You then go on by writing dialogue from your stream of consciousness like unorganized thought process where the multi personalities in your head have dialogue and talking points. Does your therapist know that you aren’t taking your MPD(multiple personality disorder)meds?
You still avoided the question. Show me your budget making $2000 a delivered minute work as a union show. How will you pay the day rates?
If you can’t do that then you can’t expect those budgets to be paid under a union contract. So that means the DGA really did research and Apted is right. It also means there’s another new voice in your head which makes Sybil jealous that you are cheating on her.
playmaker risk-taker dandruff-flaker cabinet-maker
show me the budget!
no.
first – if there’s no non-union space, and no non-union signatories allowed, then, the budgets will rise right off the bat.
current rates? don’t apply. the creative guilds work out with the amptp, dead low content. medium low content. high-end content.
the current rates and structures? out dee window. for new media.
the new media union world? everything is covered and the low low stuff may not produce a dime.
union initiation fees need to be rethought (if you’re doing a low web deal, then, adjusted accordingly)
everything is solvable, but the paradigm remains: no non-union work in the contract.
you just need to get your head out of the this is unsolvable hat, and put on your this is plenty solvable hat
Joe-
You said yourself you directed 2 indie films. Give us the budget for new media at $2000 a minute. Maybe Apted can learn from you. I mean after all what has he done?
playmaker
the answer to your ‘how will you pay the day rates on a $2000 a minute delivered Union show” is pretty simple.
SAG isn’t asking for full day rates on shows under $15,000 a minute.
it’s a structured plan to accommodate all budgets.
it’s similar to the formulas used for low budget movies.
it’s not about always making full day rates.
it’s about not letting corporations bust the union in this New Media space.
next question.
playmaker
see above
Little Joe and Harry-
Then why haven’t the MF crowd proposed such a deal? Why havent they said the new day rate for internet budgets around $2,000 is $X.XX????
Instead they would rather throw everyone out with no new contract.
Pretty stupid if you ask me.
playmaker
allen and rosenberg have proposed such a deal … to the AMPTP.
sorry if the negotiating committee hasn’t kept you posted with every little detail.
they’ve been busy trying to figure out how to avoid being stuck with this crap deal that AFTRA is so proud of.
what does ‘throw everyone out with no new contract’ mean?
you’re not making sense.
playmaker
you are becoming hysterical and shrill.
the proposal was made to the moguls and they rejected it.
they want all new media production under $15,000 to be non-union,
remember? that’s one of the reasons we’re at an impasse, remember?
dude, why don’t you call up rosenberg or doug allen or any member of the negotiating committee and demand that they tell you every detail
of all suggested compromises and alternatives that have been put forth
in this.
because you have a right to know.
playmaker
in the middle of planning D-DAY, did Eisenhower take the time to let
Private Joe Blow form Kokomo in on every detail?
No. Because it wasn’t the time to let everyone in on everything.
Everyone but you seems to understand that some secrecy is desirable
when negotiating a difficult contract.
so the answer is no, SAG shouldn’t let everyone know what it is they’ve counter-offered because people like you,
who are so eager to see the current leadership fail,
would more than likely tear the information apart and belittle it in the press. and that wouldn’t help any off us get a better deal.
do i think you’re hysterical? yes i do.
the fear is palpable in everything you write.
we all get scared, and these are trying circumstances, but if we let our fear control our decision making, we’re doomed.
the truth is, that while the balance of power may change in this election, MF will not be swept aside , no matter how much you want that.
U4S will get some seats, maybe take control,
but MF will still be around and will be a voice.
If you have decided U4S is the answer, great. good for you.
But you are not going to win anyone over to your side by constantly spewing venom that isn’t backed up with any facts.
you’re pissed off because you thought you had T-Rex in a headlock
with an unanswerable question
and when i provided a simple explanation
it made steam come out of your ears.
and i know you are going to answer this with more of the same
hysterical bile you’ve been putting out lately because it’s important for you to have last word.
so go ahead, wail away.