I’ve been sent Bill Mechanic’s keynote speech about the future of indies from this morning’s Independent Film & Television Production Conference. The former chairman/CEO of Fox Filmed Entertainment from 1994 to 2000, is now an indie producer (Coraline) and owner of Pandemonium LLC. Mechanic has always been one of the more pensive and articulate execs in Hollywood:
“I was asked to address you this morning with my observations on the present as well as the future state of Independent Production.
But before I begin, I have to relate the story of a close friend of mine, who’s a leading heart surgeon.
He said he’d recently been involved in a very trying and emotional six hour piece of open heart surgery where he and a team of people fought valiantly but unsuccessfully to save a patient.
Afterwards, my friend entered the Doctor’s locker room where one of his colleagues was staring absently into the void, clearly spent from the ordeal. He tried to cheer him up but the colleague turned to him and asked why he was not more distraught.
My friend answered with a smile:
At least we weren’t asked to save Independent Production.
Well, the truth be told, we may not be heart patients but we aren’t that far away. We have too many insignificant movies clogging our distribution channels. Tightening economic conditions are sending sharp pains through our systems. Our blood supply from heretofore vibrant markets such as DVD and TV seemingly have evaporated in front of our eyes.
The question we must ask is if the condition is fatal.
In all candor I would say only to some.
Those who ignore the warning signs. Who don’t adjust to the threatening conditions. Those producers and distributors who pretend there is nothing wrong.
Nine years ago, I was a healthy and occasionally happy studio executive. I had taken Fox over a 7 year period from a doormat to the #1 studio and before that had spent 9 years at Disney building a then-dormant minor player into a muscular and, for the first time in its history, a real force in the studio world. I left Fox with 5 of the Top 10 films in history and departed Disney with 19 of the Top 20 Videos ever and as the #1 International distributor.
I had fought with Rupert Murdoch over my desire to create a business for Fox in the world of animation. He felt no one could compete with Disney. Nevertheless I started up Fox Animation. ANASTASIA was a start, it made money. TITAN AE a misstep, and lost. Even though that is the nature of the business, that not everything works, he didn’t want to wait for ICE AGE to finish production. I didn’t have a foot out of the door before Fox tried to sell off the film. Luckily for them, they couldn’t get a deal done.
At the same time, Peter Chernin thought I was taking too much of a chance with X MEN. He called it my $70mm art film, since everyone knew that not only were comic book movies dead but you certainly couldn’t start one in a concentration camp. That wasn’t comic book fun. Maybe not, but most comic books are dark, so it was a question of being relevant, of being grounded.
Ironically, both films have lasted longer at Fox than I did and are now the most valuable franchises in the history of that studio, throwing off billions of dollars of profit.
But they also were, along with FIGHT CLUB, the leading reasons I was shown the door. My bosses couldn’t deal with the unconventional choices like those and others such as BRAVEHEART and THERE’S SOMETHING ABOUT MARY because the films weren’t pre-sold and thus seemed less predictable. This despite the fact that these unconventional movies guided Fox to the 5 best years in its history.
When I left, a few of the other Majors called to see if I were interested in running their shops. I thought instead it was time to do things on my own, to not work for companies that no longer wanted to be in the film business, that no longer thought enough about the future to not gum it up. Easier to raise money and worry only about making good movies which could make money.
Needless to say I was naïve. I thought raising money would be easy. I didn’t exactly foresee such things as the Silicon Valley bubble bursting, or the economic meltdown, or the Madof scandal. But then I guess the Captain of the Titanic thought the Atlantic was smooth sailing. And Batman thought the Joker would be a laugh.
When I first made the decision to go off on my own, Larry Gordon said to me something that I’ve never forgotten. He said running a studio is a great job but a terrible life. Producing is a great life but a terrible job.
9 years as an independent producer provides a great perspective. It also cause heart palpitations.
Here’s the one key thing I’ve learned: there is no such thing as an independent producer. There are only dependent producers.
Dependent on distributors, financiers, and bankers, and distribution channels that understand the needs of the market even less than the corporations that own the studios.
Which makes a truly independent producer even more truly dependent because the alternatives to the studio system are in many ways more difficult, not easier.
Perhaps even more than the studios, those with the controls over whether or not a movie gets made independent of the studios do so almost with less attention to the movie itself.
Part of that is due to outsiders who always seem to come into the business believing they can do better and yet rarely have an idea of what they are doing. Attorneys and financial analysts picking movies is a recipe for disaster. They can tell you all day long what hasn’t recently worked, but in truth, haven’t the experience or the knowledge to do anything different than has already been done.
That’s been the oddest lesson of this period for me. That the independent world, which should be aiming to do things better and different from the Studios, doesn’t have that as a mandate at all. If anything, the only thing that independent distributors and financiers look for is the SAME. Maybe costing a little less than the Majors, but they want what the Studios want, or in FIGHT CLUB speak, they want copies of a copy.
I now understand that unconventional choices like X MEN and ICE AGE would barely have a prayer getting made independently. Why? Because at the time, they didn’t look like anything else.
It’s disrespectful if not downright dumb to think audiences can’t tell the difference between the original, which occasionally might even have some fresh faces, and the copy, which almost always is populated with retreads. It’s like thinking you can sell yesterday’s news under a different banner.
The exception to the rule is DISTRICT 9, which didn’t try to compete with the Majors with special effects or stars or plot. Instead of feeling recycled, it was fresh and is now one of the year’s best and most successful pictures. But lot of credit has to go to Peter Jackson since it was undoubtedly his clout that got the film made.
Following the lead of the Majors, presumes that they know what they want. It presumes they have a fix on their audiences.
I would say that’s anything but true. Admissions are down over the past few years and, perhaps most troubling, the audience that Hollywood spends the majority of time focusing on, the under 25’s, are the ones finding other things to do.
Take a look at this shift over the past decade. While use of the internet and video games have dominated leisure time activities, movie consumption is down or flat over the same period. And, more to the point, you can see that there is a 21% drop in film going amongst the core target audience and a 24% drop in the next key category, 25-39 year olds.
And yes, these charts beg another question: if the audiences are shifting, why isn’t the product shifting as well. Name 5 mainstream films this year that successfully targeted an over-30 year audience.
In that way, Hollywood in the broadest sense of the word is much like Detroit. It’s a manufacturer’s mentality that reigns, seemingly indifferent to the consumers it serves. Ignore whether the consumer likes our product as long as they buy it.
Market it and they will come.
And don’t worry if they don’t come back. Accept 60% drop off rates as the norm, saying it’s all about wide openings.
Three years ago the Lakers all-but sold out every game even though they had a lousy team. Since Jerry Buss is a smart owner, he knew if he didn’t fix things, no shows would eventually turn into season ticket non-renewals. He did what he needed to do to make it the hottest ticket in town again and a no-show today is a no-no.
When was the last time you heard anyone either from a studio or an independent talking about improving their product, of creating positive buzz and expanding the audience?
Here’s one basic question to ask yourself: If the most popular film in history was TITANIC and it did so by weaving together interest in all demographic pockets as well as pulling in non-film goers, why in the last 12 years has no attempted to do the same?
TITANIC was #1 at the box office for 15 consecutive weeks. It not only spurred on record year in theatrical attendance, and had the biggest video in history, but also generated the biggest Oscar telecast in years. A good movie, like a good team in sports, makes everything around it better.
An independent couldn’t and shouldn’t make movies of that scale but it should make movies as individualistic and compelling. Certainly there are good examples among some of the smaller independent films—-SLUMDOG MILLIONAIRE being an easy choice — that actually do stand out and succeed because of their quality and their uniqueness.
But as you can see from these next few charts, the independent world was no more concerned with the consumer than the studios. With the influx of hedge fund money, the past decade saw a glutting of product, again most of it with no idea of who it was for or how it could be sold. Whether some of these movies had artistic integrity or not, there is no question there was no audience appeal.
From the low water mark of 1990, there has been a 50% increase in the number of pictures and even since 2000, nearly a 25% increase. And most of the influx came from non-Majors, rising from 150 in 1990 to 450 in 2008. That, my friends, is insanity.
Remember that through this entire period, the only growth at the box office has been inflationary, which means more films were fighting for a share of a flat box office. Over approximately this same period, the biggest hits took even a greater share of the box office pie, meaning the independents, even with a vastly greater number of releases, are taking a dramatically smaller percentage of the available money.
Let me get out the rest of the bad news, though I’m not telling you anything you don’t already know. The next 2-3 years will be even worse, not because of the flood of new releases, since that is already abating, but rather due to the effect the over saturation has had combined with the economic downturn.
New money is going to be hard, if not impossible to find. Ad sales are down, so TV networks around the world, other than cable, aren’t buying. Add in a confused video market, and it’s going to be tough.
To my mind, the next few years will be about survival.
If it’s any consolation, it will be harder on the Studios than the independents. Not only is it harder for big companies to change, to adapt, but there are legacy issues in terms of personnel. And within the next few years, their big market advantage, the bricks and mortar of their distribution operations, will become a disadvantage in the democratic age of digital. I would assume at least 2 of the Majors to be sold or consolidated by the middle of the decade.
Before I turn to why I don’t think this is all fatal — and in fact, might be a boon — let me address one more item, video. I get asked a lot if the problems are systemic. My answer is not necessarily. That we would reach a point of maturation in DVD is natural and logical, but too much of the downturn is completely self-imposed.
Like much of the bad decision making that has helped take a lot of the profit out of the business, the air was let out of the tires by the studios themselves. No top management of a studio really cared what was going on over the past few years other than was their budget being met.
No one asked whether their units should be pushing Blu-Ray in the face of an economic melt-down or even whether or not Blu-Ray was going to be the next big ap to the general consumer. They simply accepted the idea that they could resell their libraries at higher prices.
So no one asked what impact dropping the price on their existing DVD’s would have. I mean if I can buy TITANIC for under $5 in some stores, why am I so eager then to rush out to pay $30 or so when it’s released on Blu Ray? Is the quality difference that great? How many formats are yet to come?
No one asked what buying great movies at cheap prices would do to new releases, which may not be as great. Give a consumer with less expendable dollars a choice between LEGALLY BLONDE for $5 or ALL ABOUT STEVE for $20 or $30, which do I want to buy?
Simply said, the studios have destroyed the price-value relationship in video, particularly when low priced rental alternatives have sprung up everywhere.
And then add in the absolute flooding of TV product from the beginning of time into the market, and you have the conditions that have absolutely killed video as the key profit center of new movies.
Ok, so in the face of all this, why can I say this is all good news? Because a lot of waste is going to be cleared from the marketplace. Excess product will go away, the people who don’t take the business seriously will go away. Hopefully those who make crummy movies will also go away, but that may just be a personal wish.
In 1984, I went with Michael Eisner and Jeffrey Katzenberg to Disney as perhaps the 4th employee of the new regime. Disney at the time was barely a film producer much less a major distributor. Before we could execute the plans to transform that company into one of the Majors, I was asked to prepare the presentation to the Board of Directors. A lot of capital was at stake.
The numbers, like some of those we’ve discussed today, were overwhelmingly negative. In truth, the film business has never been an easy one to master. More companies fail than succeed. But what I presented, and this is still one of the absolute truths of the industry, was that it was only a bad business on average. If you expect to be an average performer in this world, you can expect to fail.
Those without the ambition or the brains to figure their way through these tough economic conditions are going to be the heart patients who cannot be saved. No one has a birthright in this business.
It is a game for winners. And those who win today will win to an even greater extent than at almost any point in the past. The flattening of the box office is only true on a macro level. For the individual film, the sky is the limit. Even though there’s more piracy of the hit picture than any other, it’s still that same hit picture that can score giant revenues in all the ancillary streams.
Those who will win will be smart about what they make and how they sell their films. They will hopefully make good films but perhaps even more key they will make unique films that stand out, which means they will not have to compete against the bulk of the films for talent. They won’t look like all the other films so they won’t have to spend as much money marketing them.
It’s not that the buyers aren’t there. Consumers, TV outlets, Retailers and, yes, even Pirates want what works.
Don’t believe me? Ask Summit about TWILIGHT. Ask Searchlight about SLUMDOG MILLIONAIRE. Ask Screen Gems about DISTRICT 9. Ask Focus about CORALINE.
Let me conclude by saying that the challenges are great. Technological innovations often hurt before they help, it takes resources to fight the sense of entitlement that breeds piracy, it takes skill and experience to know what FDR really meant when he said: We have nothing to fear but fear itself.
“I was asked to address you this morning with my observations on the present as well as the future state of Independent Production.





Clear headed. Bill Mechanic is the dude.
One of the most articulate scenarios of the Independent Film World that I have read.
Insightful, a little scary, no actually a lot scary, but strangly inspiring, thankyou Mr Mechanic, please continue to take risks on great material
Great post Nikki. The only thing he left out in his speech is that you now have to get at least 7 “names” to finance an independent film these days or not only will it not get made, but festivals won’t screen them either. The festivals are not concerned with quality either.
Just look at casting notices — ever since after the writer’s strike there was a change. All of a sudden all the producers realized name talent needed to work and they could get them for cheap. Notices started to post “Name talent only” for every little short film, independent, guest star, and sometimes co-star! That is starting to dissipate, SLOWLY. But part of this “7 names to finance” has come about because producers got spoiled during this downturn, which was exacerbated by the writer’s strike and de facto SAG strike. Over time, this will change, but it will take a very long time because the opportunities for actors is continuing to contract — hasn’t stopped. Like what Mechanic says about how the downturn will weed out the nonsense from film creation, the same thing is happening with actors — weeding out those who can’t financially survive the craft and/or who shouldn’t be doing it at all. In all, very difficult.
Quick note — was at the New York Television Festival last week and the reality pieces shown had tremendously low attendance — like 4 people showing up. One of the producers was begging creators and producers from other scripted works to come to their screenings to fill the room — “For the love of God, won’t you come to my screening?” But to be honest, no one was really interested in reality. Everyone said they were sick of it. Even non-art people — sick of it. I also saw a lot of people really fed up and shaking their heads in disgust with raunchy fare — scripted or not. There is a real swing toward quality scripted, and the fullest rooms were those who had DIFFERENT yet MAINSTREAM product that was done in a QUALITY way – no stars names were required for this. Yet only a very small percentage of pieces in the whole festival were crafted that way.
if people are getting sick of reality TV, that’s some good news!
Yeah, and that’s why every single indie marketing piece showcases names instead of logline, and why their titles suck. My point: Julianne Moore, Blythe Danner, Hope Davis, James LeGros, Roy Scheider, Michael Vartan and Noah Wylie in The Myth of Fingerprints. What’s it about? Who knows? Who cares? The model hasn’t changed since 1997.
I’d like to believe that there’s room for quality over plug in performances. District 9 got made with just one name; Peter Jackson.
Good piece, many fair points.
Unfortunately, these speeches/articles far too often serve as a self-aggrandizing reminder of the individual’s triumphs, the films they championed when no one else believed in them, blah, blah, blah.
You know what? You need a good screenplay. Not a good one, a great one. You need a script that’s castable, has terrific dialogue, etc. A film that will have people Twittering to their friends about a two-hour experience that made them laugh and cry in equal measure. Not hipster-y, ironic laughs, but genuine humor that is on the page, along with characters people care about. It’s not about stars, it’s not about directors, it’s about getting *multiple* talented actors to sign up for a project that will garner critical acclaim and word of mouth. Funding is always there for a good, quality script that can be made for a relatively reasonable price.
Of course, such scripts are few and far between. Most writers have all the ambition in the world, but the raw, unharnessed talent is hard to come by. I think this downturn will force writers to really dig deep within and stop chasing paychecks, and ultimately create real stories that put their own spin on the human condition. We saw the writers strike, let’s see them REALLY strike. It’s all about the script.
Writing great screenplays is rarely about raw unharnessed talent. It is about harnessed talent. Talent modulated by craft. And that takes years of work. It also takes a cast of mind that can somehow undergo that process of being creatively molded by fire as you build the necessary craft without letting your creative fire be snuffed out and being turned into a skilled hack.
Thankyou for your conscise and totally relevant point. Its so true, anyone remember Billy Eliott, a small indie movie pitched up against the Gladiator at the Oscars, but a great movie, wonderful believable characters, great writing! We need movies like that, with heart, people have become knumb to efx and technology, the story is always the most important issue.
That was horrifying and inspiring. Or as I like to call it, “horrispiring.”
More of a wake up call. Whilst I like the Detroit analogy, I was left unsure as to who were the “Toyotas” and “Hondas” of the movie business. I’m probably running against the grain here, but in a world short of risk capital somethings gotta give and that’s gonna be costs. Maybe the old Studio system should be revived where the stars were under contract using weekly retainers. Benign dictatorship, that’s what we need a dose of.
The only honda/toyota as far as every one is concerned is Pixar. They pretty much always make excellent movies and always turn a significant profit.
Too bad there’s not a live action studio doing the same thing. The only one close would be Fox Searchlight. They gave us, or picked up and gave us, Little Miss Sunshine, Juno and Slumdog Millionaire.
Love this guy. If we could only xerox him & put him into mass production.
The industry needs many more like him; instead, we get bean counters, lawyers-turned-dumb moguls, and lapdogs who make “copies of copies”.
Mechanic made some great movies, and he didn’t make an endless stream of sequels. Unique movies. God I love that phrase. You could just see the heads of Paramount, Sony, Disney, Warners, and 20th throwing up at those words.
Bill Mechanic – PLEASE TAKE OVER ANOTHER STUDIO AND MAKE MORE OF YOUR KIND OF MOVIES!
do you mean copies of copies?
God, I miss Mechanic as a studio head. His tenure at Fox was during a time I first started following the business, showing the industry that it was in fact possible to lead a contemporary studio with creativity and business sense.
To even think that Tom Rothman was the “leader” who followed makes me shudder in horror. He came into a studio ripe with franchise possibilities and left the showbiz floor filled with the dead bodies of Alien, Predator, X-Files, Planet of the Apes and pretty soon, what’s left of their “Marvel” franchises. The best thing that has happened to Fox in the last decade was promoting Rothman OUT of the studio and giving him enough duties with both film and TV to leave Alex Young with the opportunity to save what’s left of their most recognizable IPs.
Mechanic’s exit from Fox reminds me a lot of when New Line unloaded Michael De Luca. With his removal came a complete lack of direction in a company that had no idea how to operate with a business model post-Lord of the Rings. It still gets me how Shaye scrubbed De Luca’s name from all the press releases for one of the most profitable franchises of the last decade. Of course, they got what was coming to them.
Can’t wait to see what happens to the Rothman era after Avatar doesn’t open big enough and is then creamed by Sherlock Holmes.
De Luca didn’t really have anything to do with the LOTR movies. That’s not whitewashing, that’s a fact.
I thought LOTR came about because Peter Jackson used to sleep on Mark Ordesky’s sofa before Beautiful Creatures hit. I do think NL lost big when they kicked out DeLuca and now we just have to deal with the carnage left behind by the entitled arrogance of Bob Shaye and Rolf Mittweg who insulted just about every up and coming talent that came through the NewLine door. And now who’s left? That joke, Michael Disco. Pathetic. How a studio could be out of business after making 3B on LOTR is a study in – well I already said it: entitled arrogance, and stupidity.
Come back to the five and dime, Bill.
That was a clear, cogent and accurate assessment of the industry as it stands today. It makes me sad on one hand, but at least there’s one exec who gets it. I keep flashing back to Jeff Zucker bragging that he’s not playing for ratings, he’s playing for margins. Way to go, Jeff, you’re killing the patient by refusing to treat it.
Another reason why I loved working for this guy back in the day… a true professional and gentleman.
The guy greenlit “FIGHT CLUB.” Even if he knows nothing about the movie business, he could give us all lessons on having balls.
I agree when Mechanic insists “this is all good news.” A lot of dead wood is burning, there are fewer development positions for idiot nephews (sorry, Marc) and producers’ girlfriends. His discussion of selling smarter and selling unique films almost points directly to the upcoming “PARANORMAL ACTIVITY.” That small, scary picture is currently getting a seventies-style regional release and word-of-mouth suggests it lives up to the internet hype.
It also seems the best movies appear when studios are at their worst, economically. “EASY RIDERS AND RAGING BULLS” and of course, Evans’ “KID STAYS IN THE PICTURE” make the collapsing backlots sound like a wonderland of creativity and opportunity. We’re almost in a worse position today, so I can’t wait to see what results from the current chaos.
One could argue that FIGHT CLUB should have been little more than a microbudgeted shot-on-DV indie instead of the overscaled, big-budget behemoth that David Fincher insisted on.
PARANORMAL ACTIVITY is sub-BLAIR WITCH in every way, and what’s worse, it’s Borrrrrrrrrring. Not scary. Just hype.
re “what results”: check what happened in the 90′s. We’re in an era of excessive franchising. Studios playing it safe. There will be an audience backlash eventually. It’s a cycle.
Roger, that only depends on the budget of your film. And your second point only depends on the festivals you are aiming for. Common sense dictates that little leaguers shouldn’t play the Yankees.
Haha, true. But since when did the Austin Film Fest and Hollywood Film Fest become major leaguers? I just looked at their lineups and even they’re stacked with huge names.
Good stuff. A lot of that wisdom could be applied to other sectors, including retail and service.
There’s really nothing new here. His argument that (a) there are too many movies; (b) chasing a flat or shrinking box office; (c) with declining support from DVD sales, has been conventional wisdom for at least 4 years.
His solution? Wait for the losers to go bust, and make great movies! Durable advice, but hardly original. What about shifting release windows, changing the revenue model to App Store volume pricing to challenge piracy, finding new ways to leverage overseas box office other than pre-sale financed production, redefining the cash-flow ratio between production, marketing and revenue, or challenging any one of a number of aging dogma? The devil – and the dollar – is in the details.
Bill’s a very smart guy, and I wish he had dug deeper … but maybe he’s so smart that he’s holding back the real keys to the kingdom. As his track record demonstrates, in the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
This guy is way more better than that idiot :cough: Tom Rothman :cough:.
Mechanic’s speech is one of those “I did not know that” moments.
Great insight into what it takes to produce at his level.
Sorry, but this sort of “the ones who make good movies will succeed” is like a casino owner who says those who make smart bets will win.
If he brought us Toy Story and X-Men, he should be the head of ToysRUs. Try to make a movie about human beings for a change. Dump these old “stars” (geezers) whose star-power fiction has you under a spell. Make stories about real people using real people, spread the news virally, and make your profit. Billions in income for a movie about toys should be shameful behavior in a sane world.
Thank God I did not have to pay to sit through this guy’s snooze-fest.
“make stories about real people using real people” –”hear! hear!” or “here! here!”/better yet: “hazzah!”
A lot of great insights here that are relevant for everyone in the business. Love the comment about financial analysts and lawyers having no idea what they’re doing. This applies to television and likely other creative endeavors too. Take NBC: They have a bunch of bureaucrats from different departments judging everything, not to mention with a GE mentality. They preside over meetings in New York like judges in court, yet almost none of then have done anything of note in television, ever. Yet Zucker and the rest of them continue to reign, and the network continues spiraling into oblivion.
Zucker is just there for the paycheck. Nothing else. What does he care what GE does? He doesn’t.
Roger, There were no “names” in Slumdog, or Frozen river.
Slumdog almost went straight to dvd, according to Danny Boyle. His brilliant directing made that movie what it was. That opens up a whole new can of worms though. Trying to get a great director attached is harder now than getting “names” because there are so few great directors. With Frozen River you’re right, great film with no “names” so it is possible. There are a lot of talented directors/writers out there, but most agencies will push directors with bigger quotes on you so they can make more money on the commission and a lot of new and exciting talent is often pushed aside. It’s sad, but I’ll continue to fight the good fight! Thanks for the reply.
Bill forgot to mention that Chernin brow beat him into bifricating the cost of Titanic with Paramount most of the way through production. That decision cost Fox a billion dollars of International BO. Chernin pushed Bill into a lot of bad decisions.
Great speech.
I love the part about the proverbial sheep going away. This town is simply populated by idiots, and by that I don’t mean stupid or less intelligent people as those who jump to conform.
One of my favorite things in this town is to listen to some “producer” — often one who makes inferior films, i.e., one that makes a Dane Cook film, etc — explain why a certain script/book wouldn’t work. It’s like listening to a homeless person give stock tips. Again, they’re not lacking intelligence. They simply do not understand the concept of creative thinking.
Imagine no bad films made. It’s easy if you try.
Amen, Mechanic!
Great speech. Bill is one of the few stand up guys in town. Always nice to me, when he never needed to be. Always returned my call, even when I was working out of a cubicle at a new company as a lowly executive.
RnsW
IIRC wasn’t Bill Mechanic one of the DivX villains back in the day?
Wonder how many billions in DVD sales he made by losing that battle?
Ironic that Pandemonium’s hugh money raise fell apart because Mechanic insisted on taking out an eight figure cash bonus as soon as the money was wired. He felt entitled to it based on his track record.
Good read. Thanks