Michael Moore has never had a problem weighing in on controversial, hot-button political issues, and he gave his 2 cents about Zero Dark Thirty to Time magazine — the mag one that features director Kathryn Bigelow on the cover. An abbreviated version of his take appeared on Time.com, but Moore posted the full piece on his Facebook page:
In Defense of Zero Dark Thirty
There comes a point about two-thirds of the way through ‘Zero Dark Thirty’ where it is clear something, or someone, on high has changed. The mood at the CIA has shifted, become subdued. It appears that the torture-approving guy who’s been president for the past eight years seems to be, well, gone. And, just as a fish rots from the head down, the stench also seems to be gone. Word then comes down that – get this! – we can’t torture any more! The CIA agents seem a bit disgruntled and dumbfounded. I mean, torture has worked soooo well these past eight years! Why can’t we torture any more???
The answer is provided on a TV screen in the background where you see a black man (who apparently is the new president) and he’s saying, in plain English, that America’s torturing days are over, done, finished. There’s an “aw, shit” look on their faces and then some new boss comes into the meeting room, slams his fist on the table and says, essentially, you’ve had eight years to find bin Laden – and all you’ve got to show for it are a bunch of photos of naked Arab men peeing on themselves and wearing dog collars and black hoods. Well, he shouts, those days are over! There’s no secret group up on the top floor looking for bin Laden, you’re it, and goddammit do your job and find him.
He is there to put the fear of God in them, probably because his boss, the new President, has (as we can presume) on his first day in office, ordered that bin Laden be found and killed. Unlike his frat boy predecessor who had little interest in finding bin Laden (even to the point of joking that “I really just don’t spend that much time on him”), this new president was not an imbecile and all about business. Go find bin Laden – and don’t use torture. Torture is morally wrong. Torture is the coward’s way. C’mon – we’re smart, we’re the USA, and you’re telling me we can’t find a six-and-a-half-foot tall Saudi who’s got a $25 million bounty on his head? Use your brains (like I do) and, goddammit, get to work!
And then, as the movie shows, the CIA abruptly shifts from torture porn to – are you sitting down? – *detective work.* Like cops do to find killers. Bin Laden was a killer – a mass killer – not a general of an army of soldiers, or the head of a country call Terrorstan. He was a crazed religious fanatic, a multi-millionaire, and a punk who was part of the anti-Soviet mujahideen whom we trained, armed and funded in Afghanistan back in the ’80s. But he was a godsend and a very useful tool to the Dick Cheneys and Don Rumsfields of the world. They could hold him up to a frightened American public and scare the bejesus out of everyone – and everyone (well, most everyone) would then get behind the effort to declare war on, um … well … Who exactly do we declare war against? Oh, right – Terrorism!
· The War on Terrorism! So skilled were the men from Halliburton, et al. that they convinced the Congress and the public to go to war against a noun. Terrorism. People fell for it, and these rich men and their friends made billions of dollars from “contracting” and armaments and a Burger King on every Iraqi base. Billions more were made creating a massive internal spying apparatus called “Homeland Security.” Business was very, very good, and as long as the boogieman (Osama) was alive, the citizenry would not complain one bit.I think you know what happens next. In the final third of ‘Zero Dark Thirty,’ the agents switch from torture to detective work – and guess what happens? We find bin Laden! Eight years of torture – no bin Laden. Two years of detective work – boom! Bin Laden!
And that really should be the main takeaway from ‘Zero Dark Thirty’: That good detective work can bring fruitful results – and that torture is wrong.
Much of the discussion and controversy around the film has centered on the belief that the movie shows, or is trying to say, that torture works. They torture a guy for years and finally, while having a friendly lunch with him one day, they ask him if he would tell them the name of bin Laden’s courier. Either that, or go back and be tortured some more. He says he doesn’t know the guy but he knows his fake name and he gives them that name. The name turns out to be correct. Torture works!
But then we learn a piece of news: The CIA has had the name of this guy all along! For ten years! And how did they get this name ten years ago? From “a tip.” A random tip! No torture involved. But, as was the rule during those years of incompetency and no desire to find bin Laden, the tip was filed away somewhere in some room – and not discovered until 2010. So, instead of torturing hundreds for eight years to find this important morsel of intelligence, they could have found it in their own CIA file cabinet in about eight minutes. Yeah, torture works.
In the movie, after they have the name of the courier, they then believe if they find him, they find bin Laden. So how do they find him? They bribe a Kuwaiti informant with a new car. That’s right, they find the number of the courier’s family by giving the guy a Lamborghini. And what do they do when they find the courier’s mother? Do they kidnap and torture her to find out where her son is? Nope, they just listen in on his weekly call home to Mom, and through that, they trace him to Pakistan and then hire a bunch of undercover Pakistani Joe Fridays to follow this guy’s every move – which, then, leads them to the infamous compound in Abbottabad where the Saudi punk has holed up.
Nice police work, boys!
Oh – and girl. ‘Zero Dark Thirty’ – a movie made by a woman (Kathryn Bigelow), produced by a woman (Megan Ellison), distributed by a woman (Amy Pascal, the co-chairman of Sony Pictures), and starring a woman (Jessica Chastain) is really about how an agency of mostly men are dismissive of a woman who is on the right path to finding bin Laden. Yes, guys, this is a movie about how we don’t listen to women, how hard it is for them to have their voice heard even in these enlightened times. You could say this is a 21st century chick flick – and it would do you well to see it.
But back to the controversy and the torture. I guess where I part with most of my friends who are upset at this film is that they are allowing the wrong debate to take place. You should NEVER engage in a debate where the other side defines the terms of the debate – namely, in this case, to debate “whether torture works.” You should refuse to participate in that discussion because the real question should be, simply, “is torture wrong?” And, after watching the brutal behavior of CIA agents for the first 45 minutes of the film, I can’t believe anyone of conscience would conclude anything other than that this is morally NOT right. You will be repulsed by these torture scenes because, make no mistake about it, this has been done in your name and mine and with our tax dollars. We funded this.
If you allow the question to be “did torture work?” then you’ll lose because yes, if you torture someone who actually has the information, they will eventually give it to you. The problem is, the other 99 who don’t know anything will also tell you anything to get you to stop torturing – but their information is wrong. How do you know which one of the 100 is the man with the goods? You don’t.
But let’s grant the other side that maybe, occasionally, torture “works”. Here’s what else will work: castrating pedophiles. Why don’t we do that? Probably because we think it’s morally wrong. The death penalty sure works. Put a murderer in a gas chamber and I can guarantee you he’ll never murder again. But is it right? Do we accomplish the ends we seek by becoming the murderers ourselves? That should be our only question.
After I saw ‘Zero Dark Thirty,’ a friend asked me, “During the torture scenes, who did you feel empathy for the most – the American torturer or the Arab suspect?” That was easy to answer. “Oh, God, the poor guy being waterboarded. The torturer was a sadist.”
“Yes, that’s the answer everyone gives me afterward. The movie actually makes you care for the tortured guys who may have, in fact, been part of 9/11. Like rooting for the Germans on the submarine to make it back to port in ‘Das Boot,’ that’s the sign of some great filmmaking when the writer and director are able to get you to empathize with the person you’ve been told everywhere else to hate.”
‘Zero Dark Thirty’ is a disturbing, fantastically-made movie. It will make you hate torture. And it will make you happy you voted for a man who stopped all that barbarity – and who asked that the people over at Langley, like him, use their brains.
And that’s what worked.
P.S. One final thought. I’ve heard fellow lefties say that even if the filmmakers didn’t intend to endorse torture (Bigelow called torture “reprehensible” on Colbert the other night), the average person watching the movie is going to take it the wrong way. I believe it is the responsibility of the filmmaker attempting to communicate something that they do so clearly and skillfully (and you can decide for yourself if Bigelow and Boal did so. For me, they did.). But I never blame the artist for failing to dumb down their work so that the lesser minds among us “get it.” Should Springsteen not have named his album ‘Born in the USA’ because some took it to be as a salute to patriotism (Reagan wanted to use it in his 1984 reelection campaign but Bruce said no)?
(An edited version of this appeared on Time.com this week.)



Outstanding analysis.
Here here MM, I really think you’ve changed my opinion of the film.
I absolutely agree torture is wrong.
Very astute! I sometimes forget how smart a fella this guy is
Not the world’s biggest MM fan but he is spot on here. I also came away from the film confused by the criticism. I felt it was clear the torture didn’t work, and the only info they got, they had already gotten from dozens of other people. This is where politics always gets the arts wrong. Politicians always believe that just because something is portrayed means the artist endorses it. They don’t look at the entire context of something. Another recent example, the Django n-word controversy.
Largely agree. MM’s behavior toward fellow TV writers and union video editors leaves me cold and I’ve told him so. But his piece here is well written and addresses issues nobody else who is in his position to be heard is tackling. MM stops short of also delving into another sub theme in ZDT: why the woman has to constantly struggle to be taken seriously in rooms full of guys. For me, at least, that was a big idea in the film.
Because that is how it is in the real world…WOMEN & MINORITIES have to struggle to be taken seriously by WHITE MEN. It sucks, but it’s true.
The world awaits your oeuvre, USC Film Student. Would you happen to be a MINORITY WOMAN yourself, by any chance? Anyway, thanks for pointing out, by reverse logic, that BLACK MEN (ASIAN MEN too?) do take women seriously, unlike WHITE MEN. Never knew that. Your world is so wonderfully clear cut. I envy you.
Boy, when he’s on, he’s ON. Every single point hits directly home. And I’m going to see Zero Dark Thirty.
whole story is fake and you have been fooled. Please resource the idiot Jessica Lynch story and the Pat Tillman story. People will believe anything. Anything.
How is the whole story of Zero Dark Story fake?
I fail to believe that one woman (or man for that matter) took down Osama Bin Laden single handed. The true story would have probably been way too complicated and confusing with way too many characters to make a general audience happy. Instead, we take the heroic tale of a single person who was scoffed at by everyone else but had the right idea all along. That’s not history; that’s just what’s hip right now.
The great thing about Michael Moore is that he doesn’t let the little things overwhelm him. Little things like Zero dark thirty not being a completely factual documentary but a movie that is based on a dramatised version of the events.
But then again all Michael Moore cares about is being heard and supporting things that conform to his views, little things like facts, dramatised retellings and context for subject matter are of little importance to him.
“The great thing about Michael Moore is that he doesn’t let the little things overwhelm him. Little things like Zero dark thirty not being a completely factual documentary but a movie that is based on a dramatised version of the events.”
No, he knows. Too bad you don’t let the little things like a decent argument get in the way of your Moore bashing.
Well said
Perfect statement. If you actually see the movie (I’ve seen it 3x now), it does not promote torture nor does it ponder the debate. It’s a raw look at how far someone will go to complete a task and a realistic portrayal of what actually (or most likely) happened.
never one to miss an opportunity aligning himself with a hot button controversy, finding humorous ways to state the obvious. not the first time any if this has been stated and the movies been out for a while. his whole career is such a sham.
Great take on it Michael. You boosted her credibility. Sort of.
I guess most people are in an uproar about the torture are embarrassed that we as a country used that measure to get what we needed to find Bin Laden..But it DID it happen? Sadly, yes. Did we find him? YES.
However, I do think people are nervous that the director had a personal agenda in telling the story.
Maybe they wonder if Kathryn Bigelow used 9/11 as a pawn to help tell her story? Did she look for a story like this one to use it for a benefit? You mentioned this is a 21 century flick full of women, in front and behind the scenes, women(which is general) who might otherwise be dismissed in helping to find a terrorist?? That’s strange. So does that mean Kathryn Bigelow is “commenting” about men and their “ways” ? If so then it becomes a very revengeful story- modern day Medea of sorts- so that she now has the upper hand by making a film that EVERYONE will want to go see because we all live throug that narrative.
Wowzers.
Their seems to be too much self importance from those associated that has come with the unveiling of this film. Simply: The victims of 9/11and this horrific incident do not need to get mixed into something that feels like gender wars.
Fascinating … not your argument, that’s incomprehensible. I am just fascinated by your use of quotation, in which you “quote” terms and ideas that don’t “need” to “be” quoted for reasons beyond anyone else’s understanding.
Excellent analysis and I agree with a lot of what is said here.
I will say that I didn’t leave the movie thinking that torture is wrong. Why? Because as I sat in my seat in the dark, I was aware that the character(s) who were being tortured were directly responsible for the suffering of so many others on 9/11/2001. I remember how sad I was watching that day unfold in real time (and for weeks afterwards) in my apartment in Los Angeles, and I thought in that movie theater, “if this is how the CIA got the m’fers who put together the plot to hijack and fly planes into the buildings, then that’s how it was done. Professionals doing a job that I don’t know how to do. Thank you for your service.”
Moore makes an excellent point here about how once the CIA switched to police/detective work exclusively, things came together. I think there are a couple holes in his logic to say that all the work done (the interrogations) to that point was irrelevant towards getting bin laden.
Wrong they tortured hundreds of innocent people into making false confessions. Surely you don’t approve of that? I could torture you into confessing to anything you’d tell me whatever I want you to tell me just to get the torture to stop.
I do agree that by the end you realize the detecting tactics worked far better than the torture did to reach their goal…although I’m not going to lie, after the first minute or so listening to those panicked phone calls over a black screen, when they cut straight from that to the first torture scene, for a moment I felt it was absolutely justified…just for that first moment…which I thing actually does a great job reflecting most people’s feelings in the immediacy of the 9/11 attacks, where passion and patriotism outweighed reason in many people’s minds…another example of what made this film so great
I’d like to see Michael Moore visit the most Western-hating part of the world where they believe killing an American — a man, a woman, a child — will get you an eTicket to Allah and see how far he can get “hugging it out”.
Good luck with that.
So you consider detective work to be “hugging it out”?
Wow!
Michael Moore sure can make up a lot of dialogue for scenes he thinks happened off screen (in “Zero Dark Thirty”).
He freely quotes President Obama saying things no one else has EVER quoted him as saying. Things like:
“Go find bin Laden – and don’t use torture. Torture is morally wrong. Torture is the coward’s way. C’mon – we’re smart, we’re the USA … Use your brains (like I do) and, goddammit, get to work!”
I’d like to believe a scene like that DID take place, but it’s more like wishful thinking on your part. After all, what exactly has Obama done to bring these torturing incompetents to justice?
Mike, torture abolitionists aren’t arguing whether or not “Zero Dark Thirty” portrays torture as effective (it DOES, though Bigelow and Mark Boal try to fudge the point). We know it’s morally wrong and a crime. BUT, like it or not, Mike, there are many Americans who are morally uncomfortable with torture, but they accept it as a necessary, “effective,” tool in the “War on Terror.” If those people learn that torture doesn’t work, they might eventually come to condemn it.
Torture abolitionists don’t need you to tell them that arguments about the “effectiveness” of torture can be a trap. Yes, such arguments can distract us from the real point — that torture is a moral abomination AND a crime. Torture abolitionists have been making that point for at least as long as Fox’s “24″ went on the air (2001).
You should read some of the anti-torture literature from the National Religious Campaign Against Torture, NRCAT. The group came together in 2006, three years before Obama took office, seven years before you mounted this glib defense of “Zero Dark Thirty.”
WHY, actually, are torture abolitionists criticizing “Zero Dark Thirty”?
Because the heroine of the film (Jessica Chastain as Maya) and Maya’s mentor Dan, commit the grievous crime of torture, and they are never, ever, condemned for their crimes and they are never brought to justice. (Please don’t say they’re innocent on the grounds that Cheney, Rumsfeld, Gonzales and Woo told them it was not a crime.)
Instead of being indicted, these torturers are presented as heroes, as brave and dedicated “detectives.” The kind of scolding, which you “quote” Obama as giving offscreen, is clearly not aimed at Maya or Dan. Chastain’s Maya, is presented as especially admirable, a feminist action hero. She not only gets her man, she muscles CIA male chauvinists out of the way, as she pushes ahead on “The Greatest Manhunt in History.” And we’re supposed to empathize and cheer her on.
But along the way on her quest, she learns the fine art of torture from Dan. And she learns fast. When she’s left alone with their first victim, Ammar, he begs her for help. She coldly replies, “You can help yourself by being truthful.”
Later, Chastain gets to supervise the torture of her own detainee, Faraj. She has him punched out, as she shouts, “You’re not being fulsome in your replies!” Then she has Faraj waterboarded.
We’ve already seen these “enhanced techniques” used on Ammar. But Chastain’s Maya employs one we haven’t seen:
She orders a liquid — a thick, brown liquid — to be poured into a funnel which has been forced into Faraj’s mouth and rammed partway down his throat. Some of this brown liquid will go into his lungs, the rest, into his stomach.
Sadly, for Maya, Faraj refuses to give up any information. She complains to her mentor about Faraj’s resistance, adding, “And that’s using every measure we have.” Dan replies, “Either he’s gonna keep withholding, or he’s gonna die from the pressure you’re putting on him.” Maya then looks hopefully at Dan and says, “Hey, you wanna have a run at him?” Dan declines, so Chastain has to resume putting “pressure” on Faraj by herself.
We don’t see her torturing Faraj any more, but, in later dialogue, we learn that her “pressure” has finally killed Faraj. Her female colleague, Jessica, sympathizes with Maya, who is clearly frustrated: “Faraj was your baby … and he went south.” Chastain/Maya’s frustration isn’t about Faraj STILL withholding (How many more times did she pour that thick brown liquid down his throat?). She’s upset because her baby “went south.”
Torture is not a feminist act and it’s disgusting when you imply that this gorgeous thug is a feminist hero.
Disgusting and disappointing. I’d like to know how your parish priest interprets this film.
Does anyone else think Mr. Moore is looking for one of those PTA deals from Annapurna?
Fair analysis. My issue with ZDT is that it’s just not that great of a movie — it borrows heavily from the conventions of war/military, “detective work” films that are heavily plotted with handheld action sequences, one empathetic protagonist, and cookie cutter secondary characters. Throw in the surprise explosion, bomb, etc. to catch the audience off its feet and you have an overrated genre picture.
Although I agree with Michael Moore’s assessment on how the film addressed the morality of torture, he still unwittingly appears to go along with the whole 9/11 reason for killing Bin Laden rather than discussing the continued attempts by the government, the media, and the film industry to keep the lie going and that is just what this film does……..yes, I truly believe the agents in the field believe that Bin Laden was behind 9/11; however, its quite obvious he wasn’t and was used as a patsy like Lee Harvey Oswald was………keep in mind that Bin Laden is no saint and deserved to be killed; however, the continued slant that 9/11 wasn’t a false flag event to start a unnecessary war in Aphgahnistan and Iraq and that somehow Bin Laden orchestrated the greatest terrorists plot ever against the USA by distentegrating 110 story buildings, collapsing a 47 story tall building with no obvious cause, disappearing 2 planes and hijackers, and of course, the governments lack of desire to conduct any kind of an investigation IMMEDIATELY after the events unfolded, is rather quite amazing…..so yet again, this film perpetuates the myth that Bin Laden was somehow responsible for 9/11 and continues with the brainwashing of Americans and suggests that in the post 9/11 world we are to continue to believe Bin Laden was behind it all…..shame on you Michael Moore for not pursuing the REAL truth as you so often pride yourself in doing……and going along with the subtefuge.
Michael Moore may be right that torture is wrong and that detective work was what was needed, but he is 100% wrong about the movie being a good thing if it (effectively) uses propaganda to make audiences sympathetic to Muslim terrorists, as this movie does. ANY film which is designed to make audiences empathize with the Muslim terrorists is wretched leftist gutter tripe. And if that’s what the filmmakers were trying to accomplish, then their efforts are disgusting. It’s one thing to argue that torture is wrong. It’s another thing altogether to deliberately manipulate facile audiences into empathizing with Muslim terrorists.